• Welcome to Peterborough Linux User Group (Canada) Forum.
 

Forced Windows 11 Upgrade

Started by Jason, May 06, 2023, 06:01:28 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Jason

This might be old news to most of you. Windows 10 is reaching end-of-life soon. In about 2 1/2 years, Microsoft won't release any further updates to it after that.

Upgrading to Windows 11 requires an Intel processor of 8th generation or higher (or a Ryzen of some other version). I have an Intel i5 processor but it's only 4th generation. There doesn't appear to be any technical reason for this requirement. Older machines like mine can handle Windows 11, AFAIK. Probably, Microsoft wants to sell more PCs with those Windows 11 licenses. It doesn't just frustrate me, a lot of computers are going to end up in landfills because Windows won't support them in 2 years.

I really just game on Windows 10 but I don't like using an OS which no longer has security updates so I may have to upgrade. My wife, certainly. It's possible that Linux may now support the games I play so I could go that direction if so.

What do you guys think about this forced upgrade? Are you going to do it if your PC isn't compatible?
* Zorin OS Core 17 and Windows 10 Pro on a quad-core i5 3.2 GHz Desktop PC with dual 22" displays, 12 GB of RAM, 512 GB SSD and Geforce 1060 6 GB video
* Motorola Edge (2022) phone with Android 13

fox

According to your own message, you have 2 1/2 years before you're forced to do something. And if all you use Windows for is gaming, does it really matter if there will be no further security updates after that. I'm assuming that your Linux partition is safe from anything bad that the Windows partition would pick up.
Ubuntu 23.10 on 2019 5k iMac
Ubuntu 22.04 on Dell XPS 13

Jason

#2
If it didn't matter, I wouldn't have brought it up.

Using an EOL operating system is a really bad idea, IMHO, especially with Windows, and especially if it's connected to the internet. Games still connect to the internet to get updates and I game with others. Sometimes I take a break from gaming and jump online. If your OS is connected to the internet, it needs to get security updates.

Even if it didn't matter to me, my wife uses Windows exclusively. I also mentioned that it means perfectly usable hardware ends up in the landfill. I think that offends me more than anything else.

In any case, I wasn't looking for a solution. I wanted to know how others felt about it and what their plans were.
* Zorin OS Core 17 and Windows 10 Pro on a quad-core i5 3.2 GHz Desktop PC with dual 22" displays, 12 GB of RAM, 512 GB SSD and Geforce 1060 6 GB video
* Motorola Edge (2022) phone with Android 13

ssfc72

Jason, you said you are not looking for a solution but anyway, there a lots of YouTube videos on how you can fairly easily get a computer that Microsoft won't upgrade to Win 11, to actually install Win 11 and work fine.
The solution involves editing the Win 11 upgrade, so that it ignores the TPM and other hardware deficiencies that older computers have.

Yes, I think Microsoft is really being irresponsible, in trying to force people to send perfectly good computers, to the landfill.

Myself, I use Linux on all my computers and very rarely use Windows, so I won't have to send any relatively new computers to the landfill.
Mint 20.3 on a Dell 14" Inspiron notebook, HP Pavilion X360, 11" k120ca notebook (Linux Lubuntu), Dell 13" XPS notebook computer (MXLinux)
Cellphone Samsung A50, Koodo pre paid service

fox

OK Jason, what do I think? While I think it is a shame that a given OS isn't supported forever, I can't blame Microsoft for that, at least not directly. They are in business to make money, and I think it's fair that they stop supporting an OS at some point. Even Apple stops providing support for earlier versions of the MacOS eventually. I have a 2011 iMac with an i5 processor that cannot run any version of MacOS that is still getting security updates, and my iMac hasn't been supported for at least three years. How old is your PC that won't be able to run Windows 10 in 2 1/2 years? I'm not upset at Apple; I just run Linux on it.

The one way I can fault Microsoft (or Apple) for this is that either could open source a no-longer-supported operating system and let others come up with security updates. I doubt that this would cost them much to do in terms of lost future sales, but maybe I'm wrong. I don't think most people running older PCs would even know how to find and install a non-MS supported version of their OS, even if it existed.

Looking at this environmentally, the real shame is that computers are not made to be continually upgraded. There is at least one Linux computer made with modular, upgradeable parts, but I think all computers should be made that way.

Incidentally, I see from the previous post that there are solutions to trickWindows 11 into thinking it is being installed in an older computer. Same goes for the MacOS. The problem with the latter is that it won't automatically install a MacOS security update after the patch fooling the MacOS is applied. You have to keep reinstalling the upgraded patch. I don't know if the same is true of a Windows 11 patch.
Ubuntu 23.10 on 2019 5k iMac
Ubuntu 22.04 on Dell XPS 13

Jason

Quote from: ssfc72 on May 07, 2023, 07:39:15 AMJason, you said you are not looking for a solution but anyway, there a lots of YouTube videos on how you can fairly easily get a computer that Microsoft won't upgrade to Win 11, to actually install Win 11 and work fine.

Thanks. I had seen some but from what I've read the reason Microsoft won't support Intel processors less than 8th generation is because of processor mitigations to stop Spectre and other vulnerabilities. In Windows 10, they apply the mitigations but at the software level instead of at the hardware. I'm a bit concerned that Windows 11 might not have these software mitigations (or why demand hardware with it?) so I might be making my system less secure in the workaround. I might end up doing it anyway. I imagine my system would be after not having those mitigations than having an unsupported OS.

But I see no technical reason why Microsoft can't continue the software mitigation for older processors. I also don't see much benefit for Windows 11 other than a way for them to push more software on systems nobody ever asked for and collect telemetry.

And Fox, I think you're exaggerating my point. I don't expect OSes or hardware to be supported forever. But when there is no technical reason why Microsoft expects certain hardware, I get miffed. They don't need to continue supporting Windows 10, but Windows 10 requirements other than the processor generation and TPM, are actually the same as or even lower than Windows 10. Windows 7 hardware ran Windows 10 fine and can run Windows 11 fine. This is a money play to sell more PCs. Because more PC sales mean more Windows 11 licenses.

As for PCs being continually upgradable, it depends on what you mean by continually, but desktops are upgradable for years. My PC is 10+ years old and I can still get a better power supply, get a larger capacity hard drive, upgrade video, add a USB 3 card if I wanted and/or a network card. I've done the first three things successfully, and easily. I can still get parts for it and likely will for a few years to come.

Obviously, most laptops aren't upgradable nowadays. However, there are still laptops that are, but maybe not for as little as you want to pay. They tend to cost more. That's the choice - save money and not have it upgradable or spend a little more and be able to. It depends on whether you want to save money in the short term or long term and whether you're concerned about electronics disposal. But it's also that laptops are too small to be very modular. Surface mount soldering is done to make everything more compact. It's actually possible to still upgrade these parts but it takes special expertise to desolder them.
* Zorin OS Core 17 and Windows 10 Pro on a quad-core i5 3.2 GHz Desktop PC with dual 22" displays, 12 GB of RAM, 512 GB SSD and Geforce 1060 6 GB video
* Motorola Edge (2022) phone with Android 13

fox

Quote from: Jason on May 10, 2023, 10:53:02 PM....

And Fox, I think you're exaggerating my point. I don't expect OSes or hardware to be supported forever. But when there is no technical reason why Microsoft expects certain hardware, I get miffed. They don't need to continue supporting Windows 10, but Windows 10 requirements other than the processor generation and TPM, are actually the same as or even lower than Windows 10. Windows 7 hardware ran Windows 10 fine and can run Windows 11 fine. This is a money play to sell more PCs. Because more PC sales mean more Windows 11 licenses.

As for PCs being continually upgradable, it depends on what you mean by continually, but desktops are upgradable for years. My PC is 10+ years old and I can still get a better power supply, get a larger capacity hard drive, upgrade video, add a USB 3 card if I wanted and/or a network card. I've done the first three things successfully, and easily. I can still get parts for it and likely will for a few years to come.

....

Obviously there are no technical reasons why MS can't get Windows 11 to run on older PCs, since there are patches that allow it to work on such machines. But that doesn't mean that there isn't work for MS to do to support these older machines. I don't know whether this is true, but also there is the question of how well it would run on older machines. If performance is poor, people will blame Microsoft. Maybe the issue would only be newer features that require more processing power. If so, Microsoft could disable those features on older computers, but this mean more work on their part. I don't know if any of these points are actual issues, but they might be.

Many Linux distros no longer support 32 bit processors. I'm sure it is technically possible for most, if not all distros to support these older processors, but many are not anymore. Why? Because someone has to do the extra work of making them work to support 32 bit, and the maintainers are no longer willing to do that extra work. I realize that your computer isn't 32 bit, but I think that the analogy still holds.

With regard to my comment about PC upgradability, I was thinking more about the processor and the bus than the other parts you mentioned. I may be wrong, but I don't think that these parts can be upgraded in most PCs, or if they can, the cost would be greater than the cost of just buying a new computer. Of course, buying a new computer generates a lot more electronic waste than upgrading the components.
Ubuntu 23.10 on 2019 5k iMac
Ubuntu 22.04 on Dell XPS 13