Incidentally, I received a email through the contact form on the website enthusiastically supporting PCLinuxOS and wanting it on the beginner list of distros. It's not from a member. Asking for permission to share and if I get it, I will do so in another topic.
Not sure about putting it on the beginner's list. Tex runs it, so it is highly dependent on one person. Any of the Ubuntu updates and upgrades are upstream for family members such as Lite, Kubuntu and a lot of Mint. Pclos is an independent, with no real upstream.
Lately the popularity has sagged, into the 30s on distrowatch for the last short while. Mint, Lite,and MX are better choices in my opinion.
I also seem to recall that PCLinuxOS only uses synaptic for updates which personally I don't think is very beginner friendly. Less worried about the one-person thing because I think there are lots of others that contribute to it and would pick it up if he left or something happened to him. As as the case with distributions, most of it is likely open source so if there is a group of volunteers it would likely continue on.
Well I have to disagree with you there Mr Murdoch.
XM is basically Debian with some changes, so there is far less to do with software as it changes. And that applies to many of distos as well - most of the work is done before the software gets to them in the form of debs.
The history of Plos started with Redhat, got to Mandrake, and then to Plos, which gradually cut off its roots and became independent. They might be able to adapt some Mageia software, but I doubt Fedora would be much use to them because of the distance.
I suspect they don't use Synaptic, because they don't use debs. But I seem to recall they have something that looks and functions like Synaptic, which evolved from Mandrake tools.
I think it would be difficult to fill in for Tex.
Quote from: buster on February 15, 2019, 10:17:59 AM
I suspect they don't use Synaptic, because they don't use debs. But I seem to recall they have something that looks and functions like Synaptic, which evolved from Mandrake tools.
Yes, it looks so much like Synaptic because it is Synaptic. From the About page (https://www.pclinuxos.com/about/) on their website, 2nd paragraph:
"
PCLinuxOS is distributed as a LiveCD/DVD/USB ISO image, and can also be installed to your computer. The LiveCD/DVD/USB mode lets you try PCLInuxOS without making any changes to your computer. If you like it, you can install the operating system to your hard drive. Locally installed versions of PCLinuxOS utilize the Advanced Packaging Tool (or APT), a package management system (originally from the Debian distribution), together with Synaptic, a GUI frontend to APT for easy software installation. PCLinuxOS has over 12,000 rpm software packages available from our software repository."
Not sure where the Mr. Murdoch came from but I'm well aware of the difference between derivative distros and the independent distros. However, if the source code is available, others can jump in and work on it. I'd be very surprised if he was doing all the work himself I find it hard to believe he does all the packaging for 12,000 packages entirely himself. Although it may just be that it's not entirely independent, that it relies on upstream RPMs or at least SRPMs (RPM sources) and only PCLOS-specific packages are built by Texstar and/or others.
"Not sure where the Mr. Murdoch came from"
Oh dear Jason! Shocking.
I've heard of Rupert Murdoch and the one from the tv show about mysteries. Just not sure what it has to do with me.
Here's the email I was talking about. He's a member of the forums as well and gave permission to share his email. I won't mention who it in case he'd rather lurk for now.
Quote
I just discovered this group. I don't live near Peterborough, but have
friends that do. I've been a Linux user for 19 years, and an exclusive
(Micro$oft-free) Linux user for 11 years.
Several years ago, I did the distro-hop exercise, trying Ubuntu, Kubuntu,
SuSe, Fedora, Mint, Slackware, Mandriva, Debian, and probably a dozen others,
looking for a usable desktop distro for a new-ish Dell XPS computer.
Without fail, they all failed. Lack of hardware support was the achilles heel
for all, many giving garbled screen resolutions or colour palettes either on
live ISO boot or after installation, among other issues. I have several
friends who swear by Ubuntu, but I've never experienced a painless install
with that.
Then I tried PCLinuxOS. (Which won DistroWatch Distro of the Year in 2007)
The installation was the slickest I have ever seen. The hardware recognition
and support: comprehensive, and pretty much flawless. On-the-fly disk
re-partitioning to dual-boot a Windows system and play nice: flawless.
I have installed PCLinuxOS on many (15+) computers for friends (mostly
dual-boot on existing Windows machines), and at least 6 computers for myself.
All have thanked me, none has asked to "go back". The only problem I ever had
was with an ACER netbook.
The official ISOs are KDE Plasma or Mate, but Lxde, Lxqt, Xfce, Trinity
desktops are available thru repository packages or community releases.
PCLinuxOS is a systemd-free fork of Mandriva. I have no affiliation, just a
very happy user for over a decade who makes occasional donations.
PCLinuxOS has a vibrant support community, an excellent monthly magazine,
excellent up-to-date software repositories, and in my not-so-humble opinion,
is the single best Beginner-Desktop-Windows Refugee distro available.
https://www.pclinuxos.com/ (https://www.pclinuxos.com/)
I believe it is worthy of your consideration.
I won't argue one way or the other for PCLinuxOS as a recommendation for beginners since I've never used it. I also don't want to invalidate this person's experience, but I will note that Dell specifically supports Ubuntu on the xps. That's what I use on my own xps 13, and everything works well. However, my 2015 has a Broadcom wifi, and the driver for it isn't installed with a standard Ubuntu installation because of proprietary restrictions. One can get that driver from Dell's website, or by connecting the xps to ethernet and grabbing it from the Ubuntu repositories, or by temporarily connecting it to wifi with an external dongle and downloading it that way. I will agree that beginners would have trouble doing this, but if you have a Broadcom wifi, you're going to have the same issue with a lot of distros.
I installed PCLinuxOS, the 2018.6 KDE version, the most recent when I post this. I decided to update it before I review it. After installing about 300+ updates (understandable), I had a couple of issues which I think might be show stoppers for beginners. When I rebooted (which required me actually resetting the VM), the problems disappeared.
The first was an odd error message on trying to use the file manager that showed up in every folder. A screenshot of the error is shown in the attachment below.
The second was the inability to log out or shutdown the machine. When I clicked it, it would do the countdown (or you could click on the button) for log out or shutdown but it wouldn't actually shutdown.
Both these issues are very bad in my opinion. Other than that it does have a great installer (reminds me of Mandrake/Mandriva) and some excellent software choices for pretty much everything.
Could you get full screen with your vm?
Not by default. But I haven't tried install the Guest Additions yet. Note that I'm using Virtualbox not VMware but the additions are like the vmware tools.
Update: Tried installing the guest additions - appeared to go okay (no error messages) although it built the kernel modules too fast, I thought. Rebooted and X crashed. Haven't had that happen in many years. No graphical interface now. Oops.
It definitely doesn't play nice as a guest.
I'll try installing it on my laptop this weekend just in case the other errors were related to running in a VM.
Quote from: Jason Wallwork on February 16, 2019, 09:20:42 AM
I installed PCLinuxOS, the 2018.6 KDE version, the most recent when I post this. I decided to update it before I review it. After installing about 300+ updates (understandable), I had a couple of issues which I think might be show stoppers for beginners. When I rebooted (which required me actually resetting the VM), the problems disappeared.
....
Both these issues are very bad in my opinion. ....
But you installed this in a virtual machine. Maybe these errors wouldn't have happened had it been installed on bare metal.
"But you installed this in a virtual machine. Maybe these errors wouldn't have happened had it been installed on bare metal."
I agree Mike. You are very probably correct. But the vm install is so simple and quick. And you may go thru the whole setup of a 'real' install, and it may still not work. That would be most annoying.
And who has hard drive available? Not this cowboy.
Quote from: fox on February 16, 2019, 12:59:07 PM
But you installed this in a virtual machine. Maybe these errors wouldn't have happened had it been installed on bare metal.
You probably didn't see the update to my message just before yours that basically noted this.
Buster vs. Fox, virtual vs. bare metal. Film at 11.
In the case of beginners, remember this is what we're talking about here, I think Fox makes a better point, what matters is how it runs on bare metal, not virtual. But I doubt these updates have anything to do with it being a VM but I might be wrong so I'll try it.
So I tested PCLinuxOS on the laptop and the same issues noted above (https://forums.plugintolinux.ca/index.php/topic,708.msg4593.html#msg4593) happened. When I rebooted the issues were gone. So these issues weren't just related to it being installed on a VM.
Also noticed this warning in the Wiki under Update your PCLinuxOS (http://pclinuxoshelp.com/index.php/Update_Your_PCLinuxOS):
* It is recommended that you do a proper system update as outlined below once every week or two.
* Leaving a long gap between system updates may cause breakdown. Do not wait more than 60 days to update your system.
That makes sense with it being a rolling release except that if you have to download it and the version they have is more than 60 days old what happens then? The latest version available for download is 8 months old so that's a lot of updating which sounds like things could break.
I hesitate to recommend PCLinuxOS to beginners for these reasons. I know you could just tell beginners to reboot immediately after installing the updates but when there are other distros that don't have these issues and no clear advantages to using PCLinuxOS, why bother? I wish we had somebody in the club that still used PCLinuxOS and could elucidate on why they use it.
Hello Good People of PLUG;
This is my first time posting here.
I am the person who sent the email to Jason, which incited this thread. <ducks>, kidding.
Thank you, Jason, for giving me an account here, and responding so thoughtfully. Thank-you to the other responders to this thread for your comments.
I've been lurking for a few days, following this discussion. Several valid points, observations, and concerns have been raised. I'd like to add my experience and perspective to the mix. I'll address some of the concerns first, then provide a bit of history. A combo of personal introduction, and topical thread reply. So this is long. Sorry. I hope this is worth the read, but you'll know a lot more about me (and my sense of humour) if you get through it.
The current 8-month-old official PCLinuxOS ISOs are a bit of a concern. We've been accustomed to quarterly, or at least bi-annual official ISOs. Tex is battling C. so he's slowed down a bit. But I know there's a dedicated team of packagers around the world keeping the torch lit with daily package updates. Community releases have been rich and steady.
Last install I did, about 2 months ago, on a Win7 Dell Inspiron 560 tower, I got the same Dolphin error as Jason did after installing all the updates. After a re-boot, everything was fine, so I shrugged it off. I'm typing this on it, just now. I've never installed to a VM, only bare metal.
What's hard about Synaptic, I wonder? Past the first update, where you might want to install stuff like Windows codecs, ndiswrapper driver package for Broadcom & such (like *buntu), all you really have to know is 3 buttons: Reload, Mark All Upgrades, and Apply. Well, Ok, the three could have been combined into one "Just Do It" button. Update Notifier (YAD) in the tray tells me when I should run it, and launches it. Beyond that, browsing and searching for packages I might want to install, is a way friendlier experience than anything that ever happened under Windows, IMO.
I still consider myself a "Linux Beginner", but here's a bit of history to put that into perspective:
My first computer was a Sinclair ZX81. I was voracious to learn. Became quite proficient at a rather eccentric BASIC, then Z80 assembler code. Ended up writing dot-matrix printer drivers for various interface cards and printers, installers, screen-capture and printscreen driver modules, and font design software for other software authors who were doing word-processors, games, and paint programs at the time.
Then came my first IBM PC clone, right around DOS 3.1. The Intel 8088 left me cold, with its offset-addressing cheat, clunky I/O and interrupt handling (compared to Zilog) and a few other things. I still believe the world would be a better place today, if IBM had chosen Zilog and CP/M, instead of Intel and DOS for the first PC. So, I learned DOS batch programming. Created my own "GUIs" for my computer using batch files, key-grabbers, and ANSI screens. Then came Windows, and it's been a downhill slide since then. At least, I learned Hamilton C-Shell in the WinXP era.
Right around 2003, I got a Dell 9100 laptop (predecessor to the original XPS laptop). I had some need to learn about Linux, and started out with Fedora Core. It worked sorta OK on that machine, but I never did get sound nor wifi working. I was a bit intimidated and I let it languish. Late 2004, I bought the inaugural first-version XPS laptop. A three-ton powerhouse. Pentium4, 1920x1200 screen, and a whopping 100Gib harddrive.
Over the next year or so, I downloaded and tried just about every distro in the Distrowatch top 100. No joy. Sometimes I could get a liveCD to boot to a readable screen, sometimes not. If I got a readable screen, and got through the installation, I would re-boot to an unusable or garbled screen resolution or colour palette. Or a text login where startx brought only error messages. Or, be unable to get sound, or wifi, or both, or a printer working. I was losing hope.
Finally, I downloaded PCLinuxOS. Booted liveCD. Nice. Did the install. Nice. Sound worked. Went to configure wifi, the config program told me to go install ndiswrapper thru Synaptic, (Do you want to start Synaptic?) and come back. Did that. Select Broadcom, wifi is up. Plugged in printer. An alert window pops up, says, "You have an HP Photosmart C5200 Series All-In-One, would you like to print a test page?". Yes. Perfect test page. Tried SANE, scanner works. I've never looked back, and never had a different experience since.
As opposed to Windows: "New hardware found. Please insert driver CD or tell Windows where to look. Windows can't identify your new hardware, nor find its own arse using both hands"
The singular exception: an ACER netbook, where the liveUSB stick booted to a screen that looked like RGB had been mapped to CMY, and no attempt to configure video would fix it, so we abandoned the effort without installing.
So what is it that Tex got so right with PCLinuxOS?
It's all about the Installer!
A brilliant installer, brilliant hardware recognition, and liberal use of non-free code to accomplish that.
No Richard Stallman-esque "if it's not free, you don't need it" evangelism. (not that I don't have huge respect for Richard!)
Just, make it work for the newbie, within legal limits...
Other than that, it's just another unremarkable Linux distro. Works for me.
Cheers, folks!
I'm glad i found this place.
Comments welcome.
-Peter
Hi Rational!
Welcome to the forums. I hope you'll enjoy your time here.
Thanks for the introduction and your Linux story as well as your comments about PCLinuxOS. We have people in the club, myself included that started out with Linux Mandrake it was called and then Mandriva and even PCLinuxOS for a while. With the the switch of Mandriva to other avenues, we found that PCLinuxOS was the natural continuation of the Mandriva distro.
We eventually drifted away as we distro hopped and though some of us have come back to try PCLOS now and again, I don't think any of us find that it's any longer the king of the crop in usability. Don't get me wrong, it is a great distro but I think in some ways it was a victim of its own success in that it (as Mandrake/Mandriva before it) caused a lot of distros to improve their installers, make better settings tools and better hardware support.
It's hard to speak for everybody and I hope that others will chime in but at least a few of us here have tried numerous distros and found that except for certain hardware (wireless and hybrid graphics), we've found hardware support to be pretty damn good for probably the last 10 years, at least. Wireless tends to be a problem if you have Broadcom which seems to be on a lot of notebooks but some distros now even notice that and prompt you for the correct driver. Elementary includes it. It may still be that PCLinuxOS still has the best hardware support/detection but I haven't really found hardware support to be a problem generally with other distros. That situation was likely different back in 2003. Honestly, I don't remember :) I only remember in the mid 90s what a bitch it was just to get a good desktop environment in Linux (until Linux Mandrake) and how bad it was with laptops. Desktops had issues, too though they weren't usually shows stoppers.
A bit about Synaptic. I think others will agree with you that it's easy to use. I just find that for beginners, who have never used Linux before, it's a bit scary when you compare it to other install/update tools. I used to teach computers in college so I've been exposed to how unskilled computer users think and perceive things. With novice computer users or those new to Linux there are too many options not just in buttons but when you look up certain software packages, it's not always obvious what you need to pick to get what you want. And that's because it shows you packages and not programs and many programs have multiple packages. I know it will automatically select what you need but it's easy, for example, to install only the CLI versions of programs when you also wanted the GUI because beginners don't know the difference.
Here's a screenshot comparing Discover (probably the worst of the software managers) with Synaptic and looking under Email (Mail in Discover). Notice in Synaptic, you have to also choose between Email, Email (multiverse) and Email (universe), concepts new users, especially to Linux haven't been exposed to. Some other differences:
- Ratings vs. not having any
- Program vs. packages
- Curated vs. non-curated
- Desktop Email clients vs. Desktop Email clients mixed with Email servers
- Comfortable vs. dense layout
- Obvious install button vs not obvious (Selected a package in Synaptic but don't see an install button)
On that last item, you can double-click and then choose to Mark the package and it says a bunch of other packages are installed. From a beginner standpoint, what does mark mean? Does it mean it will be installed when I choose it? Obviously not, well obviously to us, maybe not so to beginners. Then we have to hope they will notice the Apply button is no longer greyed out.
These are obstacles that can scare newbies. Once you've taught what to do then no problem. PCLinuxOS has a great install and use manual which is superb. And we all know that people read manuals, right?
I think if you had a user already comfortable with Linux like most of us help a new person to use Synaptic, they'd get it except that still might be confused by the amount of software available and what is actually any good and meant for desktop use. But they could adapt. But to me, good beginner software should be inherently obvious to use, if it can be made so. It shouldn't require explanation. Once people have gotten used to how things work, sure then Synaptic will be fine as they will have much more software available.
Anyways, thanks for your comments. I hope I don't come across as too down on PCLinuxOS. I think it's a powerful distro and I'm glad it's part of the Linux family. I wasn't aware that Tex was battling C, I assume you mean Cancer? I hope he recovers and PCLinuxOS lives on.
And love the comic!
Jason,
Thank you for another thoughtful and well-crafted reply!
Good points, all of them. I'm aware of the history... It's been a long time since I've tried any other distro. PCLinuxOS was once nick-named "the Distro-Hopper Stopper". That's how it was for me, and I've never looked back. But that was over 10 years ago. Back then, all the distros (that existed at the time) that are on your beginner list brought me only frustration. Despite my earlier (and now mostly irrelevant) programming experience, I was intimidated by Linux. PCLOS ended that.
My perspective on distro-hopping is somewhat dated, and I'm sure things have changed for the better. I'm old enough to dislike unnecessary change, so I tend to stick in my comfort zone. I've never had an update bork an install, and everything works to my satisfaction. So I have seen no need to try anything else. I'm just not that adventurous any more.
Oh, one thing: PCLOS remains proudly systemd-free, and I have a somewhat dim view of systemd.
Points on Synaptic well-taken.
Yes, Tex is battling cancer. He took some time off for a while, and the elves held the torch. I believe he is in remission now (fingers crossed). He's been back at the helm, and quite active in the user-forums at the moment.
Yes, that comic is a favourite, and a nice little ice-breaker in a forum such as this :>)
Another perspective on my sense of humour is attached. From xkcd.com.
I shall defer to your good judgment on beginner distros. Perhaps I tossed my 2 cents on the table when there was already a Dollar there...
Cheers!
Welcome to the PLUG forums, Rational, and thanks for your comments on PCLinuxOS. I've been a Linux user for 7 or 8 years. I did plenty of distrohopping, and I can't tell you why I never tried PCLinuxOS. By the time I got seriously interested, Ubuntu was THE distro. I've never had a problem with any version of it, nor with upgrades, so although I still try other distros for fun, Ubuntu has been my distro of choice. I came to Linux from Mac, so my desktop computers are Macs. Linux works very well on Macs with one exception: Broadcom wireless. Broadcom drivers aren't installed at the outset, but it's easy to get as long as you have a wired connection (or download it from another computer or operating system). When I first started with Linux I wanted to install it on a PowerPC Mac, and very few distros made a PowerPC version. The three that did were Debian, Ubuntu and openSUSE, so those are the ones I tried at the outset. I'm pretty sure that PCLinuxOS didn't have a PowerPC version; it doesn't now.
As far as Synaptic is concerned, it has always been my software finder of choice. I've never found it difficult to operate, and it seems to be much better at finding the software I need than any of the "newfangled" installers.
Quote from: Rational35 on February 27, 2019, 05:25:51 AM
My perspective on distro-hopping is somewhat dated, and I'm sure things have changed for the better. I'm old enough to dislike unnecessary change, so I tend to stick in my comfort zone. I've never had an update bork an install, and everything works to my satisfaction. So I have seen no need to try anything else. I'm just not that adventurous any more.
You know if it works, go for it. No need to change what you're happy with.
I tend to get bored of a distro after a while, usually six months to a year. I think that I used Linux Mint for the longest time. But also had elementary for a long while and Ubuntu MATE. Used to LOVE SUSE back when you had to buy it long before OpenSUSE and SLED. I think I probably used it for a number of years after my long love affair with Mandrake/Mandriva/PCLOS.
And another great comic! xkcd is the best. I used to be a huge fan of User Friendly decades ago.
Quote from: Rational35 on February 26, 2019, 04:38:06 AM
....
Late 2004, I bought the inaugural first-version XPS laptop. ....
Over the next year or so, I downloaded and tried just about every distro in the Distrowatch top 100. No joy. Sometimes I could get a liveCD to boot to a readable screen, sometimes not. If I got a readable screen, and got through the installation, I would re-boot to an unusable or garbled screen resolution or colour palette. Or a text login where startx brought only error messages. Or, be unable to get sound, or wifi, or both, or a printer working. I was losing hope.
Finally, I downloaded PCLinuxOS. Booted liveCD. Nice. Did the install. Nice. Sound worked. Went to configure wifi, the config program told me to go install ndiswrapper thru Synaptic, (Do you want to start Synaptic?) and come back. Did that. Select Broadcom, wifi is up. Plugged in printer. An alert window pops up, says, "You have an HP Photosmart C5200 Series All-In-One, would you like to print a test page?". Yes. Perfect test page. Tried SANE, scanner works. I've never looked back, and never had a different experience since.
....
So your PCLinuxOS installation has been working well since 2005? That's impressive for a rolling release, but I still wouldn't recommend it to beginners if only because it's a rolling release. I have only tried two rolling release distros: Manjaro and Arch. Manjaro does more screening than Arch before it releases updates, but one of its updates still broke my installation a few years ago. Both distros warn you about rolling releases potentially breaking things, and suggest that you may have to do some work to fix them if they are broken. This is not the type of thing a beginner can easily do.
I still have Arch on a laptop, but more out of interest to see if it will stand the test of time than because I actually use it for work or play. I check on it about once a month, but sometimes the interval is longer. Surprisingly, it has yet to break, and I've had it for about 3 years. But that still wouldn't give me the confidence to depend on it, and I'm not a beginner anymore. Perhaps PCLinuxOS does more screening than Majaro before releasing software updates?
QuoteSo your PCLinuxOS installation has been working well since 2005? That's impressive for a rolling release
LOL, I don't think I still have a working computer from then. I'm on about my fourth daily-driver machine since then, so there have been several installs.
The only time an update forced a re-install, was a changeover to a major new KDE release, KDE3 to KDE4, I think...
That was well publicized and warned about in the user forum, well in advance, so everyone was prepared. In fact it was a scrolling title warning on the main website... *IF YOU WANT TO CONTINUE TO UPDATE, YOU MUST RE_INSTALL ON THIS DATE...*
I can recall one other update, where major KDE components were affected, a similar notice was issued, but the requirement was simply to re-boot immediately after the update.
Other than that, I can say I've never had an upgrade break my system, over 4 to 5-year periods of continuous updates to the original install.
<Edit> Actually, I have one machine, an AMD tower, that's been continuously updated for 9 years on the original install. It started as PCLOS2010, now 2019. I just don't use it often anymore, hard drive making funny noises. it's in my shed/workshop. Tex is a real stickler for holding back and testing upgrades until they're proven not to break anything.
QuoteAs far as Synaptic is concerned, it has always been my software finder of choice. I've never found it difficult to operate, and it seems to be much better at finding the software I need than any of the "newfangled" installers.
Well, all I can say is:
Cheers!! to that. Precisely my take.
<edit> Sorry, I haven't figured out attributed quotes here, so I've been copy/paste between standard BBcodes... Nevermind, I just realized NoScript was blocking javascript here, corrected that, and the whole world opened up.