I recently bought an HP Envy 13.3 (Intel i5 version) that was on sale at Best Buy. There is a lot to like about this laptop, but it seems to have multiple problems if you want to use Linux on it. I say Linux because I tested out the laptop with several different distros (Ubuntu, Mint, Fedora, Mx, Zorin, Manjaro), including three versions of Ubuntu, and all had the same problems. All ran OK from their live distros, and the one that I installed alongside Windows (Ubuntu 22.04 LTS), installed without any problems. The three problems were: (1) no sound from the internal speakers (headphones work fine), touchscreen doesn't work as a touchscreen, and it doesn't wake up from sleep in a usable way whether you put it to sleep from the menubar or just close the lid. To explain the latter, it does wake up from sleep but the display flickers on and off and you can't get it to stay on. The only way to recover is to force a shutdown and reboot. I like this laptop so much that I decided I could live with 1 and 2 (there was a hint on the internet that a fix for 1 would eventually make it into a new kernel), but not with 3.
I did search the internet for fixes, and postings about Linux on an HP Envy were very sparse. I don't expect that there are fixes available for these problems (with the possible exception of sound from internal speakers), so this post may be more for information of Linux users thinking about buying this otherwise very nice laptop. But if you do find something helpful, please post. Note that I don't have much more time before I have to return this laptop for a refund, and unfortunately, I am planning to do that barring a fix for at least the sleep/suspend.
This is also a warning to people thinking of buying an HP computer to run Linux. HP tech support is extremely unhelpful. In several of the posts I found, they would simply indicate that they don't support Linux; end of story. It gives me extra appreciation for Dell, which provides Linux-specific drivers.
Thanks Fox, for the review about the HP Envy notebook and it's problems with running a Linux Distro.
Yes, I would return the thing and look for another notebook, if I had bought one.
Did you do a Google search for the latest new notebooks that users have reported, to run well with Linux?
No I haven't done a Google search for that in particular, but I did come across a Ubuntu Certified Hardware site that lists computers known to be compatible with it. Interesting to note that there are HP laptops on it, but not Envy or Spectre models; the only ones that would interest me. I seem to recall that you had an HP laptop at one time that was compatible with whatever version of Linux you were running. Out of curiosity, which one was it?
One other point. I really like this Envy laptop. It was reasonably priced, has good specs, is fast for anything I do on it, and all the features work much better on it than they do on my 2017 Dell xps 13 2 in 1; at least in Windows. Ubuntu also works well on it except for the three aforementioned problems. I know that the Dell xps 13's are fully compatible with Linux; the alternative I'm considering if I return this computer is to buy either a one year old (9310) or the new basic clamshell model (9315); either with touchscreen. However, from its specs and the reviews I've read, this HP Envy is actually a better (but for Linux compatibility). I therefore want a reason to keep it. The break point was the inability to wake it when put to sleep or suspended (are they the same?), especially by closing the lid (which is instinctual). I'm wondering if there is a way to close the lid and open it later with Ubuntu working, even if it isn't put to sleep. Or would that be dangerous because of heat buildup?
One interesting thing to add. I made a Ubuntu 22.10 VM in Windows with VMware Player. Running it is slower than running Ubuntu bare metal, but it does work and the functions that didn't work on bare metal do work here. Except for suspend within Ubuntu, which froze the VM. However, closing Player suspends the VM, which is what you want. It gives an alternative, and most of Ubuntu runs bare metal, but I don't know if I can live with that.
Yes, I still have and use my HP 360 11 inch notebook computer. I seem to recall it had a minor issue under Linux, maybe sleep or hibernation, not really sure what it was. I rarely use the computer but I seem to recall it worked well booting Linux.
The boot menu shows Ubuntu but that does not seem to boot, only Win 10 boots.
I just tried a recent version of EasyOS, booting from a usb pendrive and that works very well, off of the pendrive. Wifi was automatically running and the response of the Distro is very quick, to run the internet browser.
Quote from: fox on February 09, 2023, 01:21:35 PM
No I haven't done a Google search for that in particular, but I did come across a Ubuntu Certified Hardware site that lists computers known to be compatible with it. Interesting to note that there are HP laptops on it, but not Envy or Spectre models; the only ones that would interest me. I seem to recall that you had an HP laptop at one time that was compatible with whatever version of Linux you were running. Out of curiosity, which one was it?
One other point. I really like this Envy laptop. It was reasonably priced, has good specs, is fast for anything I do on it, and all the features work much better on it than they do on my 2017 Dell xps 13 2 in 1; at least in Windows. Ubuntu also works well on it except for the three aforementioned problems. I know that the Dell xps 13's are fully compatible with Linux; the alternative I'm considering if I return this computer is to buy either a one year old (9310) or the new basic clamshell model (9315); either with touchscreen. However, from its specs and the reviews I've read, this HP Envy is actually a better (but for Linux compatibility). I therefore want a reason to keep it. The break point was the inability to wake it when put to sleep or suspended (are they the same?), especially by closing the lid (which is instinctual). I'm wondering if there is a way to close the lid and open it later with Ubuntu working, even if it isn't put to sleep. Or would that be dangerous because of heat buildup?
One interesting thing to add. I made a Ubuntu 22.10 VM in Windows with VMware Player. Running it is slower than running Ubuntu bare metal, but it does work and the functions that didn't work on bare metal do work here. Except for suspend within Ubuntu, which froze the VM. However, closing Player suspends the VM, which is what you want. It gives an alternative, and most of Ubuntu runs bare metal, but I don't know if I can live with that.
Well your situation would parallel mine, assuming your HP 360 isn't a touchscreen, except your sound works from the internal speakers. Ironically, I had issues with my boot menu on the Dell xps - Windows wouldn't boot from the entry. I never was able to figure out why. So to boot Windows on that laptop, I had to go into the boot menu and select Windows.
I have a kludgy solution to the sleep/suspend problem on the HP. I can set the power settings to blank the screen, but turn off automatic suspend (on the Ubuntu side of course). It even works when I close the lid, thanks to a change I made in the /etc/systemd/logind.conf file (HandleLidSwitch=lock). Only potential problem (someone comment please) - if the display is off but the computer isn't asleep, would this cause a heating problem if the lid is closed?
" I made a Ubuntu 22.10 VM in Windows with VMware Player."
Do my eyes deceive me?
I'm surprised some enterprising Linux users haven't found a work around for this. Many people with savvy in the community.
And is there a function you can adjust that puts the distro to sleep after so many minutes automatically if unused? If it doesn't wake up it's not much use though.
And how long does it take to boot and open a distro with the computer's hardware? If it's a great computer for your awful choice of Ubuntu, it might be worthwhile considering turning it off when finished working on it.
But then half my house involves work-arounds. I'm accustomed to a lack of perfection. Our family motto: Good enough.
And I can't use a touch screen because I get peanut butter all over it.
I hear ya', Buster, about the peanut butter. :) You can also smear your screen if you touch it after putting on hand creme. I never had a touch screen on a computer until I bought the Dell 2 in 1; that was at the end of 2018. It is convenient sometimes when it's hard to get the mouse pointer in a precise position, but I can live without using it. The lack of sound from the speakers can be inconvenient too, but it isn't a deal breaker for a few reasons. First, if I want sound, I can either plug in a speaker or headphones, or even use a bluetooth speaker. Alternatively, I can hear it from the Ubuntu VM, or I can hear it from Windows. And ultimately, I'm pretty certain the smart folk maintaining Debian or Ubuntu or Mint will have a fix for this. The not waking up from sleep was more of a problem, but I now have a workaround for this, too.
So the decision boils down to keeping a computer with a few flaws on the Linux side, or buying a new or last year's Dell xps 13 that will work perfectly with Ubuntu, but is in my mind inferior in a few ways to this HP Envy. (The Dell being slower, poorer battery life, isn't a convertible x360, and has fewer external ports than the HP. Also the Dell is pricier, and the HP actually comes with a good stylus.) The third option would be to return the HP and stick with my current Dell until something better comes out. But my current Dell has 1/3 of its battery capacity gone, a minor screen crack, and it requires some extra effort to boot into Windows because something is wrong with its Grub bootloader. (I was never able to figure that one out and I eventually gave up.) I haven't decided yet, but right now I'm inclined to keep the HP. I'm interested to hear what other PLUGers think.
And if any of you come across a potential fix for any of the three problems, please post!
The HP 360 does have a touch screen but I have never used it that way, so I would not have noticed any problem using it under a Linux Distro.
The reason I purchased my HP 360 back in around 2017 was to have a notebook with an IPS screen. An IPS screen doesn't fade out when you look at it at a slight angle from direct line of sight.
I got really tired of having to constantly adjust the tilt of the screen on my older Acer notebook, when I was watching a video playing.
Quote from: fox on February 09, 2023, 05:59:28 PM
Well your situation would parallel mine, assuming your HP 360 isn't a touchscreen, except your sound works from the internal speakers. Ironically, I had issues with my boot menu on the Dell xps - Windows wouldn't boot from the entry. I never was able to figure out why. So to boot Windows on that laptop, I had to go into the boot menu and select Windows.
I have a kludgy solution to the sleep/suspend problem on the HP. I can set the power settings to blank the screen, but turn off automatic suspend (on the Ubuntu side of course). It even works when I close the lid, thanks to a change I made in the /etc/systemd/logind.conf file (HandleLidSwitch=lock). Only potential problem (someone comment please) - if the display is off but the computer isn't asleep, would this cause a heating problem if the lid is closed?I have a kludgy solution to the sleep/suspended problem. I can blank the screen, but turn off automatic suspend (on the Ubuntu side of course). It even works when I close the lid, thanks to a change I made in the /etc/systemd/logind.conf file (HandleLidSwitch=lock).
The only potential problem (someone comment please) - if the display is off but the computer isn't asleep, would this cause a heating problem if the lid is closed?
I discovered one other thing working and one not. Bluetooth is working, so that is alternate way of getting sound. Unfortunately the videocam is not working - no video in Cheese or Zoom. That's unfortunate and the workaround is to Zoom on the Windows side. So now, the two things not working for which there is no workaround on the Linux side are the touchscreen and the video cam.
With regard to sound, I think I know what the problem is, but not the solution. My audio controller has two kernel modules: snd_hda_intel, and snd_sof_pci_intel_tgl. However, only the second is loading and I don't have the option in sound preferences to change them because the former doesn't show as an option. Incidentally, every linux distro I booted into on this laptop loads the same snd_sof_pci_intel_tgl sound driver.
I suspect that there is a solution, but so far I haven't been able to find it.
Just as an experiment, I would try in your situation using a virtual, pumping up both the ram, and the HD space, as much as possible, and trying it full screen for a bit.
I suspect it will be maybe a touch slow, though everything will work.
One advantage of this setup is you can get into Windows immediately by minimizing the virtual. And drag and drop between the systems is helpful, as well as copy/paste for web sites or like anything. And when you're finished in windows click the VMware icon and it's instantaneously on.
Sleep in both systems should work, but I don't know. But I think you found this to be true.
Or, he said dramatically, you could have a dual boot and a virtual. And I'd bet you would be the only person in Peterborough with a complex-hybrid system (Patent Pending). Maybe the only person in Canada. Maybe in the world!!!!!!!!!!!
I'm one step ahead of you - already set up a Ubuntu partition and a VM on Windows. The VM is much slower; I think that wouldn't be the case if I was able to use the built-in virtualizer, but you need Win 11 Pro for that. In the VM, sound from my internal speakers works, and so does touch. Sleep/suspend works of course, because VMware Workstation Player is just a program running on Windows. The only thing that I couldn't get working in the VM is the webcam. It doesn't show as an option in the settings.
I installed the VM just to test things like this that weren't working from the Ubuntu bare metal partition. Nice to know that I have it, but hard to imagine why I would actually use it when anything not working in Ubuntu does work in Windows.
I did some more more checking on the current Dell xps 13 standard model (9315); reviews, comparisons with HP and current price. The reviews put the two in a virtual standoff; some things slightly better in one and some slightly better in the other. The xps 13 is now on sale, and with a coupon I can get it similarly configured as the HP for $100 more. (That would be the clamshell version with touch, 16 gb RAM, and a 500 gb SSD instead of the 1 TB that comes with the HP. I don't need all this storage on a laptop and I don't need the 2 in 1 feature as long as I have touch.) I'm now sitting on the fence again. I have another 2+ weeks to decide whether to keep or return the HP.
So you have a a complex-hybrid system (Patent Pending) already!
One feature of the virtual I like, though I agree it does have some disadvantages, is that both systems are always on. With a dualee, the laptop has to be shut down and rebooted to access the other.
I do sometimes listen to music files on one and work on the other. Mostly if Kubuntu is acquiring an old film slowly on my laptop, I do email or whatever in Windows. My taxes are always done in Windows, so if I remember something I can just jump over to that system
But your requirements are quite different. You want a fast Linux system as a priority. You don't get speeding tickets on a virtual, though my velocity is pretty good.
And be careful. Speed Kills.
Rule of Thumb: HP + Linux = Don't
Quote from: William on February 10, 2023, 10:25:47 PM
Rule of Thumb: HP + Linux = Don't
William, could you elaborate please? I was totally unaware that there were Linux issues specific to HP. If this is so, then I'm less optimistic that there will be a fix for the sound in the HP Envy. I can live without sound from the internal speakers for awhile, but I would ultimately want a fix for this. This makes me more inclined to return this laptop in favour of another Dell xps. I hate to do it because this is a really nice laptop at a very good price, but Dell does support Linux.
What a bird's nest you walked into! Safe to say that most people would have given up trying to make it work. You must really like this laptop! I appreciate you spending the time to let us know at a level of detail that even I envy! :)
Anyway, I'll address a couple of questions you had since I can't think of anything else to offer.
Quote from: fox on February 09, 2023, 01:21:35 PM
The break point was the inability to wake it when put to sleep or suspended (are they the same?), especially by closing the lid (which is instinctual). I'm wondering if there is a way to close the lid and open it later with Ubuntu working, even if it isn't put to sleep. Or would that be dangerous because of heat buildup?
Yes, there are 5 different power setting modes officially known as S0 to S5 (or maybe S4?). A good place to look for adapting this in hardware is looking at the BIOS or more likely, given the modernity of this laptop, UEFI. There may be a power section in it.
Additionally, in Ubuntu and other distros, there should be a choice of what happens when you close the lid. It's perfectly safe to have the lid closed while it's left on. When my desktop wasn't working, I used my Toshiba laptop for about 1 1/2 years with the lid closed and an external monitor, mouse and keyboard. It annoyed me to have the laptop lid open when I wasn't going to use its features. I did shut it down when I went to bed but otherwise, it was on. You should be doing the same, Mr. Environment. :) Your battery will last longer, too, for when you actually need it unless you're leaving it plugged in anyway. You may also have an option in BIOS/EUFI to choose what happens when you close the lid. It may be under display settings.
It's not quick but if you want the system returned to the state it was, you could try using hibernate mode or hibernate-sleep. Since it's powering down the machine after saving the RAM to disk, it'll take longer to load (maybe slightly longer than a fresh boot), but it's more likely to work. The mixed hibernate-sleep mode probably won't show up in Linux as an option (at least graphically) but hibernate might be. It tends to require a swapfile which you can create after an install if you didn't when you installed it.
Good luck!
Quote from: Jason on February 12, 2023, 06:03:06 AM
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Additionally, in Ubuntu and other distros, there should be a choice of what happens when you close the lid. It's perfectly safe to have the lid closed while it's left on. When my desktop wasn't working, I used my Toshiba laptop for about 1 1/2 years with the lid closed and an external monitor, mouse and keyboard. It annoyed me to have the laptop lid open when I wasn't going to use its features. I did shut it down when I went to bed but otherwise, it was on. You should be doing the same, Mr. Environment. :) Your battery will last longer, too, for when you actually need it unless you're leaving it plugged in anyway. You may also have an option in BIOS/EUFI to choose what happens when you close the lid. It may be under display settings.
It's not quick but if you want the system returned to the state it was, you could try using hibernate mode or hibernate-sleep. Since it's powering down the machine after saving the RAM to disk, it'll take longer to load (maybe slightly longer than a fresh boot), but it's more likely to work. The mixed hibernate-sleep mode probably won't show up in Linux as an option (at least graphically) but hibernate might be. It tends to require a swapfile which you can create after an install if you didn't when you installed it.
....
Thanks for that, Jason. Since that posting, I already discovered that I have options within Ubuntu as to what to do with the lid closed. I chose to require login when opened, and then tested this out. I tried closing the lid and leaving it for a bit, opening asks for login, and there was no obvious heat buildup, so that seems like a good option if I expect to come to the laptop later in the day. As for leaving it on all the time, that makes no sense to me the way I use it. The laptop is a secondary device to me; I may not use it again for days or even weeks sometimes. So I'm going to continue to shut it off when I have no likelihood of using it again that day.
As I noted in my previous post, I am now concerned about whether I'll get a fix for sound in a reasonable time period. I've tried everything I could find on the internet that I am capable of implementing (i.e. nothing that involves recompiling a kernel). I even tried going to Ubuntu Mainline Kernels site and installing the latest daily build (6.2 beta as I recall), but no joy.
I realize that I would still have access to all of these features on the Windows side, but I am reluctant to use Windows for anything more than I need to, worrying as I don't trust it for malware, data theft, takeover schemes, etc.
With the HP flaws on Linux in mind and the knowledge that I can get a current xps of similar spec to the HP for only $100 more, and that it will have the webcam, sound, touch and sleep working, I have pretty much made the decision to return the HP and buy the Dell. The downsides would be fewer ports (but small dongles to cover the missing ones), smaller SSD (but 500 gb is plenty for me), slightly lower performance and battery life (but still very good on both fronts), and no replaceable SSD. Of those listed, only the soldered-in SSD bothers me; not because I would ever need a larger one, but because if something goes wrong with it, it would probably be very expensive to fix.
Comments?
Quote from: fox on February 12, 2023, 07:20:58 AM
As for leaving it on all the time, that makes no sense to me the way I use it. The laptop is a secondary device to me; I may not use it again for days or even weeks sometimes. So I'm going to continue to shut it off when I have no likelihood of using it again that day.
To be clear, I wasn't suggesting leaving it on all the time. I was saying the opposite. I thought maybe you were leaving your laptop in suspend mode throughout the day and therefore wagging my finger at you mainly in jest. :) When I was using the laptop as my main computer, I set it to suspend after an hour and then power down after two in case I forgot to shut it off. I would have powered it down if I didn't plan to use it for the rest of the day but, and I know this will make you sad, would rarely ever happen. Not an outdoor guy. :)
Pity that you can't get the speaker audio to work but I find laptop speakers usually suck anyway. And they can be atrocious for video conferencing. A lot of laptops put the microphone on the bottom or just close to the fan outtake.
Well, thanks for the replies. I made my decision this afternoon. I restored the laptop to factory settings and returned it. Now to decide next move; either:
- hang on to my old laptop and don't buy anything
- buy the Dell xps 13 9315 (current model)
- buy a refurb or open box Dell ops 13 9310 (last year's model)
- buy something else
Two advantages of the older model: the SSD is replaceable and it has a speaker jack. The current model has a soldered SSD and only two ports (thunderbolt 4), but it has dongles for USB 2 and a speaker jack.
If you're looking for advice, I'd go with the older model. You'll get a longer life out of it in case the drive fails. It could be fine but it's really hard to predict. Could happen tomorrow, could happen in 5 years. I'm sure last year's model is fine. Unless If your current model is doing fine, then why get a new one?
Very interesting discussion going on here Fox. In case you find it useful, I always get most of my stuff from https://www.infotechcomputers.ca/ If they have anything you like after doing your research. I have asked them to max out ram, and include extra HD, exact same as in it. They also ship out to you. Now most systems seem to have SSD drives.
Cheers and good luck in your search. Tom.
Thanks for the reply, tommmolica, and the suggestion. I went onto infotechcomputers website, but they don't carry anything close to what I'm looking. I want a current or late model ultrabook and they don't carry those.
Quote from: Jason on February 13, 2023, 10:04:07 AM
If you're looking for advice, I'd go with the older model. You'll get a longer life out of it in case the drive fails. It could be fine but it's really hard to predict. Could happen tomorrow, could happen in 5 years. I'm sure last year's model is fine. Unless your current model is doing fine, then why get a new one?
I think you mean "unless your current model isn't doing fine". I guess that depends on what you mean by "fine". It works, but the battery is down to 2/3 original capacity, the display has a hairline crack (which doesn't affect the function), and the webcam, being at the bottom of the display, is pretty awful. It is 100% functional, so I don't have to replace it but would like to. I tend to agree with you that the older model, with the replaceable SSD, is preferable to the current model. The older model is an xps 13 9310. Dell doesn't carry them and nor do any stores I am aware of, but they can be had on eBay, and Best Buy associated sellers. Problem is I want an FHD touch display, not a battery-eating OLED or high res display. Also, I want the clamshell, not the 2 in 1 model, which reviews indicate has an uncomfortable keyboard. (The 2 in 1 also has the model number 9310.) I look regularly, but haven't been able to find one with these specs that doesn't cost more than the new one (model number 9315). Actually, I today I found a refurb that's potentially suitable. It has an i7 chip (which I don't need), but is low-spec for RAM (8 gb) and SSD (256 gb) vs the new one (16/500) and sells for only $150 less than the new one. I'm still considering it.
Thanks for the correction. I fixed it.
I forgot (I don't know how) that long battery life is essential to you. Chromebooks are really great for that (8 hours seems standard but you can get longer). There are some projects in which you can replace the Chrome OS with Linux. But it's closer to a tablet than a laptop in many ways since versions nowadays support most Android apps. They are often limited in hard drive space and everything is usually soldered on so that's a downside. You can't really upgrade.
The webcam on the bottom of the display is very unusual. I've never seen that before.
8 GB should be plenty of RAM for most things, Windows included. But maybe you run some programs that are heavy? Is the RAM soldered on, too? Regarding the smaller SSD, if you find yourself running out, it's likely due to data files which you can transfer to a portable drive. How much disk space are you using now?
I don't have any experience with how well it works but have you tried this tool for choosing a laptop?
https://www.laptopmag.com/laptop-finder
Quote from: Jason on February 14, 2023, 08:20:32 AM
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The webcam on the bottom of the display is very unusual. I've never seen that before.
8 GB should be plenty of RAM for most things, Windows included. But maybe you run some programs that are heavy? Is the RAM soldered on, too? Regarding the smaller SSD, if you find yourself running out, it's likely due to data files which you can transfer to a portable drive. How much disk space are you using now?
The webcam placement was Dell's response to thinning the bezels. Bottom placement sucks; you get a chin view unless you greatly elevate the laptop.
RAM is not a problem on my present xps. I don't use it for anything heavy. I was just commenting on the difference between the refurb 9310 available at present and the new 9315 I specked out. RAM is soldered so what you get you get. While not important to me, I know from experience that it affects resale value.
My current xps has a 512 gb SSD; it came with that. It's way more than I need, but it would be good to have more than 256. I have three main partitions; Ubuntu 22.04, Windows 11 and Linux Lite (the latter mainly for making changes in Ubuntu that you can't make when it's mounted). The three take up about 300 gb. I can certainly squeeze into a 256 if I had to, but I would rather pay more and get the 512 if I could. In any case, the SSD would be replaceable in the older model, so I wouldn't worry about it so much.
What I'm thinking now is to hold onto my current xps and wait until the new models come out, which is normally in the spring. Dell has received a lot of criticism for the low-res webcam, dearth of ports and soldered SSD. They often respond to criticism from reviewers, so maybe the next version will be better. And if not, the older ones will sell for less than they do now.
Quote from: Jason on February 14, 2023, 08:28:57 AM
I don't have any experience with how well it works but have you tried this tool for choosing a laptop?
https://www.laptopmag.com/laptop-finder
Never heard of it, but I checked it out. Unfortunately it doesn't deal with the main issue for me, which is Linux compatibility. Ubuntu does have a website called Certified laptops (https://ubuntu.com/certified/laptops), which is somewhat helpful in that regard. But it only lists Dell, HP and Lenovo laptops. Even then, I don't know that they have all the compatible ones listed. I have heard that older HP Spectre laptops are Ubuntu-compatible, but no Spectre model is listed. Perhaps to be listed here, everything the laptop has for Windows has to work in Ubuntu. Even on my xps 9365, touch works in Ubuntu, but not many of the gestures do.
Well I didn't have to wait long for a deal I couldn't resist on the Dell 9310 (2020 model). Best Buy had one as an open box; touchscreen, core i7, 16 gb RAM, 512 gb SSD. For $100 less than the HP Envy and $200 less than the current model Dell (9315). Full one year warranty. And it's from Best Buy itself, not one of its marketplace sellers, so if I have any problem with it, I can bring it back to the store. The ultimate question is whether it's a better buy than the new one. It might be slightly slower, but it has a replaceable SSD, which gives me some security. It will have much better battery life than my current xps, and some reviewers claim its battery life is better than the newer 9315 even when both have the same FHD touch display. We'll see.
Nice! Does the 2020 year model XPS have lots of usb ports?
Thanks for sharing your detailed specs on the current model of XPS. I wouldn't want a solder in SSD either.
Quote from: ssfc72 on February 14, 2023, 10:19:31 PM
Nice! Does the 2020 year model XPS have lots of usb ports?
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Actually no. It has two Thunderbolt 4 USB Type C ports. But it also has an audio jack and a micro-SD slot. The new xps models have only the Thunderbolt ports; no audio jack and no micro-SD slot. Dell also gives you a USB C to USB A adapter in the box in the 2020 model. (They give you that and a USB C to audio adapter in the new models.)
Both have soldered on RAM, but that has been the case for awhile. The soldered on SSD is new for Dell and it's only on their cheaper model.
Funny that I'm getting the xps for the same price I paid for the HP Envy, and both from Best Buy. Best Buy doesn't normally carry xps 13 in their stores; the one I'm getting is a real stroke of luck. What I can't understand is they have one more open box of what appears to be the exact same model, but for $800 more than mine cost. Go figure!
Unfortunately, my xps 9310 purchase from Best Buy fell through. They only had one, and even though they accepted my order, someone must have gotten there first. Five days later they cancelled my order and offered me a $100 gift certificate for my trouble. Meanwhile, the price of the current model, similarly specked has come down to within $100 of the 9310 open box. I'm considering it again.
Quote from: fox on February 20, 2023, 05:40:16 PM
Unfortunately, my xps 9310 purchase from Best Buy fell through. They only had one, and even though they accepted my order, someone must have gotten there first. Five days later they cancelled my order and offered me a $100 gift certificate for my trouble. Meanwhile, the price of the current model, similarly specked has come down to within $100 of the 9310 open box. I'm considering it again.
That's weird. Was it from their online store or the local store? I know that Best Buy in their online store has other sellers. It sounds weird to me that Best Buy itself would accept your order and then let somebody else have it.
Have you looked at any Lenovo sales? Here's one (https://www.lenovo.com/ca/en/p/laptops/thinkpad/thinkpadt/thinkpad-t14-gen-3-(14-inch-intel)/21ahcto1wwca2) that looks good except for the smallish drive (256 GB) - soldered on. But it comes with Ubuntu pre-installed. There are a few more like that but they're more expensive.
Oh wait, you're wedded to the idea of one with a touch screen, right?
Quote from: Jason on February 20, 2023, 07:29:43 PM
That's weird. Was it from their online store or the local store? I know that Best Buy in their online store has other sellers. It sounds weird to me that Best Buy itself would accept your order and then let somebody else have it.
I would be guessing, but when I ordered it, the website indicated only one left. Perhaps someone else ordered it before I did, and my order then came in before the website could be updated. This is Best Buy itself, not one of its other sellers. Other sellers have the same model, but I wanted to deal with Best Buy because if I have a problem with it, I know who I'm dealing with an can return it to the local store. Also, this was "open box", not refurb, so I would have had the full one year guarantee. Their marketplace sellers are probably OK, but I know from various postings that Best Buy doesn't stand behind them if there is a problem.
Quote from: Jason on February 20, 2023, 07:39:36 PM
Have you looked at any Lenovo sales? Here's one (https://www.lenovo.com/ca/en/p/laptops/thinkpad/thinkpadt/thinkpad-t14-gen-3-(14-inch-intel)/21ahcto1wwca2) that looks good except for the smallish drive (256 GB) - soldered on. But it comes with Ubuntu pre-installed. There are a few more like that but they're more expensive.
Oh wait, you're wedded to the idea of one with a touch screen, right?
The 9315 I picked is $100 cheaper, and has more RAM (16 vs 8gb), a larger SSD (512 vs 256), and touch. I don't want to buy my laptop with Ubuntu pre-installed, as I need the Windows to run one necessary program that won't run on Linux or Wine. Dell supports Ubuntu, and all functions work in the Ubuntu 22.04 I installed on my current Dell, so I'm not worried about compatibility. In fact, both the xps 13 9310 and 9315 are certified by Ubuntu to be compatible. (Unlike the HP Envy.)
My only hesitation is the soldered-on SSD and the Lenovo wouldn't solve this. I was ready to buy the one-year old Dell xps over the current model only because the former has a replaceable SSD.
What is taking up the most room on your SSD? Could you use a portable drive for files if they're taking up a lot of room that way 256 GB will be enough. I have a 512 GB drive with Windows 10 and lots of games on a 350 GB partition. And some of the games are quite large. It's not unusual for a game to be 50 GB (or more)! You might have cached files from updates and if you upgraded to Windows 10; you likely have Windows 7 still on the drive (so you can roll back).
The reason I mention this is that I was able to get Windows 7 AND Linux on a 64 GB to drive a few years back. It barely fit but it did fit. But all my files and games went on an HDD RAID array (multiple disks treated as one). A portable drive with USB 3 would be fast enough, certainly for loading data.
Two programs that can help you recover space are Treesize Free - for finding out what is taking up the most room on your Windows partition and Glary Utilities for clearing some files. It can remove programs, too. Maybe you can pare things down so that 256 GB would be more than enough (with large data files on an external drive).
First of all, I'm running three OSes on that SSD. Second, I have a virtual machine on at least one of them. Third, I haven't used anywhere near the whole 512 gb; the three OSes use about 300-350 gb together, but that includes all of the free space on their partitions. I could easily cram them into 256 gb if I had to and for that matter, I could get rid of Linux Lite. The Ubuntu partition has a lot of music and photos on it. And yes, there are undoubtedly cached files I could get rid of.
Question is, why bother? If I saw a laptop I wanted that came with a 256 gb SSD, I would buy it as long as it isn't soldered on. The only laptop I'm considering with a soldered on SSD is the current model Dell xps 13 9315, and it comes with a 512 gb SSD. One of Best Buy's marketplace sellers has last year's 9310 refurbs in excellent condition. They have two configurations with touch; an 8gb RAM 256 gb SSD for $899 and a 16 gb RAM 256 gb SSD for $80 more. If I was to buy this one, I would pay the extra $80 for the extra RAM. I would then probably upgrade the SSD, but at my leisure. Ironically, the same reseller has the newer 9315 refurb in excellent condition; it comes with 16/512 for only $899 but of course this model has the soldered on SSD. Not that I would ever need to upgrade it; my worry would be if it malfunctions down the line.
I see what you're saying. You should really treat yourself and get one of these. It's about $1200 EUR which works out to about $1800 CAD for the cheapest model with a 512 NVMe drive. Sadly, Windows is extra. Probably because most of their clients don't want to pay the extra for a Windows license they'll never use. You can probably get a cheap Windows license through Trent, I imagine. Remember, that included Windows license does cost money, it's just hidden. Though they show some present models, the important stuff is customizable (like Dell, I imagine) AND not soldered on, totally replaceable.
Probably not what you want but I just want to put it out there in case somebody else is interested.
https://www.tuxedocomputers.com/en/Linux-Hardware/Linux-Notebooks/Alle.tuxedo#!#1275,1319
That actually does look like a nice computer, though rather pricey and with the previous generation Intel processor. By the time you get it here it would cost roughly twice what the equivalent Dell would cost. But it's lighter and you do have to pay for quality. Nice, but something I don't use enough to justify the price.
I'm curious. What exactly, makes a newer generation processor better if it's the same number of processors, speed, etc? I still have a generation 4 Core i5 @ 3.4 GHz with 12 GB and it seems plenty fast to me. I can even play some recent games with it, albeit at lower graphic settings because it's not an i7. I'm sure generation 5 or 6, or 10 is better in some ways than generation 4, but I doubt it's that noticeable. Probably more just a way of selling new devices. Kind of like a car being last year's model like the new model is somehow better. I'd rather have something that has been tested for more than a few months. :)
Btw, I wondered about your comment about OLEDs using more battery. It seems like that was from one particular model of Dell XPS, though it may have been the one you were looking at. It was hyped as increasing battery life but that doesn't seem to have panned out generally. Sounds like not a reason to buy OLED but not a reason to not buy it either, IMO. It should be great for any multimedia uses, like videos and such since the blacks will be a deeper black. But if you're looking at a mostly white screen most of the time like websites and office apps, it's not turning off pixels so wouldn't use less energy but not sure why it'd use more. Who knows?
My wife and I watch streaming videos on her monitor. Judging by how hard it is to see scenes where it's dark, I think we need one! I don't know why so many movies like to leave the audience literally in the dark.
Quote from: Jason on February 27, 2023, 04:44:49 AM
I'm curious. What exactly, makes a newer generation processor better if it's the same number of processors, speed, etc? I still have a generation 4 Core i5 @ 3.4 GHz with 12 GB and it seems plenty fast to me. I can even play some recent games with it, albeit at lower graphic settings because it's not an i7. I'm sure generation 5 or 6, or 10 is better in some ways than generation 4, but I doubt it's that noticeable. Probably more just a way of selling new devices. Kind of like a car being last year's model like the new model is somehow better. I'd rather have something that has been tested for more than a few months. :)
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I don't fully understand the mechanics of processors, but from what I've read, the 12th generation Intel processor has more cores than the 11th gen, and is more energy efficient. It may also reach higher clock speeds. I've seen the test results of reviews on the 11th and 12th gen xps 13's, and the test results show the latter performs better. Whether it would make a difference to someone like you or I that doesn't use processor-intensive software is another matter. I doubt that it would make much of a difference to me, which is why I would seriously consider buying the previous generation of xps 13. The reviews I've seen show that battery life isn't that different either, at least on the tests they perform. For all these reasons, the xps 9310 looks as attractive, or more attractive to me than the newer 9315, with the most important difference being the removable SSD in the 9310.
I read that new xps models are typically introduced in May. In the past, Dell has shown that it will make changes to heavily criticized elements of the current models. Elements of the 9315 receiving the most criticism in reviews are: slow U-series processor relative to the faster P-series; removal of audio jack port; and soldered on SSD. I don't care about the first and not so much about the second, but just maybe they will fix the third. After all, their higher end xps plus has a removable SSD.
So my thinking now is to wait until the new model is released, unless a deal comes out on the present or last year's model that I just can't resist. My current xps is still quite functional, so I don't need a new laptop "yesterday". And if the new one isn't particularly attractive, or costs more than I'm willing to spend, the two previous models will probably be cheaper than they are now.
Quote from: Jason on February 27, 2023, 04:44:49 AM
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Btw, I wondered about your comment about OLEDs using more battery. It seems like that was from one particular model of Dell XPS, though it may have been the one you were looking at. It was hyped as increasing battery life but that doesn't seem to have panned out generally. Sounds like not a reason to buy OLED but not a reason to not buy it either, IMO. It should be great for any multimedia uses, like videos and such since the blacks will be a deeper black. But if you're looking at a mostly white screen most of the time like websites and office apps, it's not turning off pixels so wouldn't use less energy but not sure why it'd use more. Who knows?
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I think that the OLEDs use more energy than the standard non-OLED model because the latter is pushing few pixels. In a Dell xps 13, the OLED model has a resolution of 3456 x 2160 pixels, vs 1920 x 1200 on standard, full HD models. So the OLED might be more energy efficient pixel for pixel, but less energy efficient overall. Dell also sells an Ultra HD model in the higher end xps Plus, resolution of 3840X2400 pixels. That one uses a lot more energy than the standard HD, and presumably the OLED model as well. OLED and Ultra HD options are only available on the xps Plus (model 9320). In the reviews I've seen, the 9315 (with 1920 x 1200) gets double the battery life of the 9320 with OLED. However, this isn't an apples for apples comparison because the 9315 has a U-series processor and the 9320 has a P-series processor.
Thanks for elucidating on those details. It sounds like it's not so much the technology but the resolution that is driving the energy use, which is typically higher in OLED as you point out. I really don't understand why anyone wants to pack more than 1920 x 1080 into a display that is less than 15" in size but then again, look at phones. It seems like Ultra HD has become the norm for them as if anybody would notice the difference. :)
Several of the reviews I recently read reinforce your point that higher resolution than 1920 x 1080 on a 13" laptop is overkill. I agree and will happily stick with this to increase battery life. In many of the recent ultrabooks, the screens are slightly taller and the resolution is 1920 x 1200 (16:10). Dell xps 13 uses this resolution in both the previous and the present models. HP went to that resolution as well in the Intel version of Envy and in the HP Spectre 14, they have gone for a 3:2 ratio (1920 x 1280). I really appreciated the extra vertical space in the Envy when I was testing it out, and I will no longer consider buying a 1920 x 1080 laptop.