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General (non-Linux) => General Discussion => Topic started by: buster on June 02, 2021, 05:26:59 PM

Title: Woe is me - apparently Window 11 comes out mid summer.
Post by: buster on June 02, 2021, 05:26:59 PM
You can do a search and find out what the excitement is about if you wish. But personally I don't want change. I don't want everything connected to everything. I don't want apps on the web, or storage on the web, or connections to my phone. I like discreet entities, and I like my machines just the way they are.

And anyone who has done a major update on Windows, knows we are probably in for a lot of pain.
Title: Re: Woe is me - apparently Window 11 comes out mid summer.
Post by: gmiller1977 on June 02, 2021, 06:29:10 PM
Oh dear, and I've been holding out to NOT have to use a Microsoft account on my PC  ;D

I haven't had a chance to read any news today... did they actually announce Windows 11?  I heard that the CEO has been drumming up "next generation Windows" (whatever that is), over the last few weeks and there was an entry of GitHUB for it.

Personally, I'd be happy if we got CURRENT generation Windows working properly.
Title: Re: Woe is me - apparently Window 11 comes out mid summer.
Post by: fox on June 03, 2021, 10:23:08 AM
Quote from: gmiller1977 on June 02, 2021, 06:29:10 PM
....
Personally, I'd be happy if we got CURRENT generation Windows working properly.

Yep, I still am unable to successfully complete the latest Windows 10 H2 update (2021-05 Cumulative Update). Should I care? I don't know. I only use Windows on my laptop to run TurboTax software. It works fine as things are. I don't get popups telling me I have to update; I only know that this update is available because I check for Windows updates about once a month. Other updates come up besides the H2; I think including Defender and perhaps other security updates. I don't care about the features, only if by not updating the H2 I have a potential security problem. Anyone know?
Title: Re: Woe is me - apparently Window 11 comes out mid summer.
Post by: gmiller1977 on June 03, 2021, 11:00:50 AM
Quote from: fox on June 03, 2021, 10:23:08 AM
Yep, I still am unable to successfully complete the latest Windows 10 H2 update. Should I care? I don't know. I only use Windows on my laptop to run TurboTax software. It works fine as things are. I don't get popups telling me I have to update; I only know that this update is available because I check for Windows updates about once a month. Other updates come up besides the H2; I think including Defender and perhaps other security updates. I don't care about the features, only if by not updating the H2 I have a potential security problem. Anyone know?

You will continue to receive security updates for your current version of Windows for quite some time, there is a technet article that talks about when builds will be supported until if you want to share your current build.  I'm running H2, and I don't see anything different from the previous version, although, certain control panel applets are slowing being replaced with Windows 10 versions.

On a side note, I found a video of the presentation that Microsoft did on their "new" version of Windows.  I might be wrong, but I don't think a theme means anything drastically new and improved  ;D

https://gizmodo.com/microsoft-teased-a-revamped-ui-for-windows-10-and-it-lo-1842428082

While Apple some really cool UX stuff, I really wish Microsoft would stop trying to be Apple, get back to Windows builds like they did in the NT 3.5 and 4.0 era. 

Title: Re: Woe is me - apparently Window 11 comes out mid summer.
Post by: Jason on June 03, 2021, 03:19:08 PM
Quote from: fox on June 03, 2021, 10:23:08 AM
Yep, I still am unable to successfully complete the latest Windows 10 H2 update (2021-05 Cumulative Update). Should I care? I don't know. I only use Windows on my laptop to run TurboTax software. It works fine as things are. I don't get popups telling me I have to update; I only know that this update is available because I check for Windows updates about once a month. Other updates come up besides the H2; I think including Defender and perhaps other security updates. I don't care about the features, only if by not updating the H2 I have a potential security problem. Anyone know?

You don't normally get a popup for an update unless your computer needs to be rebooted on account of it. They're installed invisibly in the background. There are also different types of updates (https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/news/microsoft/the-different-types-of-windows-10-updates/). You get necessary updates plus things you might not want like what gmiller was referring to. This "feature" is a bug IMHO.

Each cumulative update contains all the updates since the build of Windows 10 you installed. However, it's a delta package, so only updates since the last one are downloaded and installed. That can save a lot of time when you reinstall Windows since you won't have to install potentially dozens or hundreds of updates like with Windows 7. Service packs served a similar function (e.g. Windows 7 SP1) but weren't released very often.

If you want, you can prevent updates from being applied automatically (https://www.windowscentral.com/how-stop-updates-installing-automatically-windows-10). After doing that, you will have to run Windows Update manually to get the latest updates. You also might want to run Windows Update because the updates in between cumulative updates don't come out to all users at the same time. Or perhaps you need to have a particular update like a new or updated driver. Feature updates like 20H2 are optional, at least when they first come out, but you need to specify not to install these in Windows Update or you will get them anyway. Users don't get a feature or cumulative update at the same time so if you want to skip the line, you can run Windows 10 manually. Microsoft may decide to stop supporting a particular build with regular updates so you may be forced to get a certain feature update eventually.
Title: Re: Woe is me - apparently Window 11 comes out mid summer.
Post by: Jason on June 03, 2021, 03:33:13 PM
With Windows 10, Microsoft changed the model of Windows (https://www.windowscentral.com/windows-11) from new versions to being continually updated. There won't be new releases of Windows in the future so you won't upgrade, at least in the traditional sense. Windows 10 will be changing its features over time with feature updates of which 20H2 is one. You could almost say these are upgrades as they may make huge changes and could take a while to install, or not install, as with Fox's experience. The feature update in the Fall is supposed to be major. You can put lipstick on a pig. It's still a pig.

Not sure if this update will be optional or not. Eventually, though, At some point, Microsoft won't release updates for previous builds so it will be forced on everyone. I suspect this will be forced from around the release date except in the corporate environment.
Title: Re: Woe is me - apparently Window 11 comes out mid summer.
Post by: Jason on June 03, 2021, 03:40:55 PM
I don't think they're trying to be like Apple except by making Windows SaaS (Software as a Service) which I believe the Mac OS is now?
Title: Re: Woe is me - apparently Window 11 comes out mid summer.
Post by: fox on June 03, 2021, 04:06:56 PM
Quote from: Jason on June 03, 2021, 03:19:08 PM
....
If you want, you can prevent updates from being applied automatically (https://www.windowscentral.com/how-stop-updates-installing-automatically-windows-10). After doing that, you will have to run Windows Update manually to get the latest updates. You also might want to run Windows Update because the updates in between cumulative updates don't come out to all users at the same time. Or perhaps you need to have a particular update like a new or updated driver. Feature updates like 20H2 are optional, at least when they first come out, but you need to specify not to install these in Windows Update or you will get them anyway. Users don't get a feature or cumulative update at the same time so if you want to skip the line, you can run Windows 10 manually. ....

I do run Windows update manually; the auto feature is turned off. 20H2 did install, as did updates to it until April. March installed, April didn't, May didn't. Is this a security problem? If so what do you recommend I do? Maybe wait until the next version of Windows comes out?
Title: Re: Woe is me - apparently Window 11 comes out mid summer.
Post by: fox on June 03, 2021, 04:13:08 PM
Quote from: Jason on June 03, 2021, 03:40:55 PM
I don't think they're trying to be like Apple except by making Windows SaaS (Software as a Service) which I believe the Mac OS is now?

I'm not sure you could call the Mac OS SaaS. You don't pay for subscriptions. If you own a Mac and that Mac supports the latest version of MacOS (or at least an updated version from what it came with), you download it for free from the Apple Store. Security updates between versions are also free, but the difference between them and Microsoft Windows updates is that installing the Mac ones is seamless. The Mac OS produces new versions annually, and they typically issue 5-10 security updates for a given version. The latest version of Mac OS (MacOS 11; Big Sur), can be installed on Macs as old as 2013.
Title: Re: Woe is me - apparently Window 11 comes out mid summer.
Post by: buster on June 03, 2021, 04:36:37 PM
My updates ultimately work, but once in awhile the update doesn't quite work, Microsoft comes back in, removes the unsuccessful parts, and reinstalls the update. But I have three machines, and I like the way they look and work, and one computer is about a dozen years old.

It just seems like a bother for something I don't want, and my updates are all automatic, and not as easy as Linux. (No need to comment.)
Title: Re: Woe is me - apparently Window 11 comes out mid summer.
Post by: fox on June 03, 2021, 05:09:38 PM
Quote from: buster on June 03, 2021, 04:36:37 PM
My updates ultimately work, but once in awhile the update doesn't quite work, Microsoft comes back in, removes the unsuccessful parts, and reinstalls the update. ....

The unsuccessful update has been tried about 5 times over a 2 month period. Still doesn't work.
Title: Re: Woe is me - apparently Window 11 comes out mid summer.
Post by: gmiller1977 on June 03, 2021, 05:26:35 PM
Quote from: fox on June 03, 2021, 05:09:38 PM
The unsuccessful update has been tried about 5 times over a 2 month period. Still doesn't work.

I see this at clients every so often.  If you are interested, you can download the latest version to a USB drive, and do an in place upgrade - it will normally get over the final hurdle.  Windows Update has this problem from time to time.  In fact, I had the same problem with 1909 came out.
Title: Re: Woe is me - apparently Window 11 comes out mid summer.
Post by: fox on June 03, 2021, 06:45:54 PM
OK I have it downloaded. I double-clicked on it and it started to install but then failed. Is this because I have to start the installation from a usb stick? If so, how do I do this? Just put the file on a usb and boot from it?
Title: Re: Woe is me - apparently Window 11 comes out mid summer.
Post by: gmiller1977 on June 03, 2021, 07:49:38 PM
Quote from: fox on June 03, 2021, 06:45:54 PM
OK I have it downloaded. I double-clicked on it and it started to install but then failed. Is this because I have to start the installation from a usb stick? If so, how do I do this? Just put the file on a usb and boot from it?

First, make a system image with Windows backup (located under control panel), so you can recover if things go south  ;D

Then, you need to make USB boot media with the installer, then reboot and boot off the USB media.

Before you do that, is the H2 update the only update waiting to install?  If so, when it fails, can you check your event logs to see what event ID it posts?

Title: Re: Woe is me - apparently Window 11 comes out mid summer.
Post by: buster on June 03, 2021, 09:40:01 PM
Scanning the web tonight and I have come to the conclusion that I may be perpetuating a hoax. The articles about Win11 may not be true. The May update/upgrade may be the new Windows, and because of its massive nature, it probably is the big change. And because of its nature it may be difficult for some systems.

I admit, I may have been gullible. Not sure yet, but probably.
Title: Re: Woe is me - apparently Window 11 comes out mid summer.
Post by: Jason on June 04, 2021, 09:57:29 AM
Quote from: fox on June 03, 2021, 04:06:56 PM
I do run Windows update manually; the auto feature is turned off. 20H2 did install, as did updates to it until April. March installed, April didn't, May didn't. Is this a security problem? If so what do you recommend I do? Maybe wait until the next version of Windows comes out?

What technique did you use to turn off the auto-updating? I'm just curious. I just defer updates for a couple of weeks so everyone else can beta test them for me and work out the kinks. Thanks to those of you who knowingly or unknowingly are doing that testing. :)

What kind of update is this?

If it's a feature update, it's optional, at least until Microsoft decides they won't support earlier builds (then it won't be marked as optional). Cumulative updates aren't considered optional as they usually (always?) have security fixes. If it's a feature update, there's no rush. Let the dust settle unless you just absolutely must have the latest greatest Windows 10 and knowing you, Fox, you just have to, right?  ;D


Title: Re: Woe is me - apparently Window 11 comes out mid summer.
Post by: Jason on June 04, 2021, 10:01:49 AM
Quote from: buster on June 03, 2021, 04:36:37 PM
My updates ultimately work, but once in awhile the update doesn't quite work, Microsoft comes back in, removes the unsuccessful parts, and reinstalls the update. But I have three machines, and I like the way they look and work, and one computer is about a dozen years old.

When one doesn't work, just pause automatic updating for a few days or a week until they fix the issue. If it happens repeatedly on the same update, I mean. You can also defer updates if you have Windows 10 Pro.
Title: Re: Woe is me - apparently Window 11 comes out mid summer.
Post by: Jason on June 04, 2021, 10:13:44 AM
Quote from: buster on June 03, 2021, 09:40:01 PM
Scanning the web tonight and I have come to the conclusion that I may be perpetuating a hoax. The articles about Win11 may not be true. The May update/upgrade may be the new Windows, and because of its massive nature, it probably is the big change. And because of its nature it may be difficult for some systems.

I said earlier on this topic that Windows no longer releases new versions (e.g. Windows 11), at least not now. They've moved to the model of just continually updating Windows 10. Just do a search for "Windows 10 is the last version of Windows". The feature updates are considered new versions which may be where the confusion crept in. They happen every 6-12 months if I'm not mistaken. But some are very boring and change little. The "alleged" Windows 11 version is a feature update that is supposed to bring in major changes in the Fall. But it's not Windows 11. Unless Microsoft suddenly decides to call it that. But you won't have to buy it.

These feature updates are optional, at first. Eventually, Microsoft stops supporting an earlier build so you're forced into it then. Not that Microsoft doesn't push you to install them anyway because they're so great. Whatever.
Title: Re: Woe is me - apparently Window 11 comes out mid summer.
Post by: fox on June 04, 2021, 12:12:07 PM
Quote from: Jason on June 04, 2021, 09:57:29 AM
What technique did you use to turn off the auto-updating? I'm just curious. I just defer updates for a couple of weeks so everyone else can beta test them for me and work out the kinks. Thanks to those of you who knowingly or unknowingly are doing that testing. :)

What kind of update is this?

If it's a feature update, it's optional, at least until Microsoft decides they won't support earlier builds (then it won't be marked as optional). Cumulative updates aren't considered optional as they usually (always?) have security fixes. If it's a feature update, there's no rush. Let the dust settle unless you just absolutely must have the latest greatest Windows 10 and knowing you, Fox, you just have to, right?  ;D

I don't know what I did to turn off auto-updating, but it's off. This is a cumulative update, not a feature update.
Title: Re: Woe is me - apparently Window 11 comes out mid summer.
Post by: Jason on June 04, 2021, 06:00:41 PM
Which cumulative update is it? There can be more than one each month. Does it have a KB number? If so, do a search for problems with that particular update. It should also tell you if there are security updates in it. If there aren't or they're not that serious, you could wait a little longer and try it again in a week or so.
Title: Re: Woe is me - apparently Window 11 comes out mid summer.
Post by: Jason on June 04, 2021, 06:18:34 PM
You can download updates separately from the Microsoft Update Catalog (https://www.catalog.update.microsoft.com/home.aspx) and then run the update directly (i.e. it's an .msu file). Just do a search for the KB number.
Title: Re: Woe is me - apparently Window 11 comes out mid summer.
Post by: fox on June 04, 2021, 06:58:41 PM
Quote from: Jason on June 04, 2021, 06:18:34 PM
You can download updates separately from the Microsoft Update Catalog (https://www.catalog.update.microsoft.com/home.aspx) and then run the update directly (i.e. it's an .msu file). Just do a search for the KB number.

If you mean by "running the update directly", download the update and click on it, I already tried that. It wouldn't install.
Title: Re: Woe is me - apparently Window 11 comes out mid summer.
Post by: Jason on June 04, 2021, 07:32:32 PM
Yeah, that's what I meant. What happened? Did you get an error message? If so, it should have a number with it that you can look up. I believe there's also a Windows Update troubleshooter embedded in that setting.
Title: Re: Woe is me - apparently Window 11 comes out mid summer.
Post by: gmiller1977 on June 06, 2021, 09:34:52 PM
Quote from: fox on June 04, 2021, 06:58:41 PM
If you mean by "running the update directly", download the update and click on it, I already tried that. It wouldn't install.

This likely won't work (in my experience).  Using ESB to do an inplace upgrade is what has worked for me in the past (multiple times).
Title: Re: Woe is me - apparently Window 11 comes out mid summer.
Post by: Jason on August 04, 2021, 10:59:30 AM
I have to note after reading that Windows 11 wasn't something that was coming, at least i the near future, now it is. Well, just in an early state (beta? alpha?) at this point. Sigh. Microsoft can never make up their mind. I guess they have to release a new version so they can make some more money on retail sales. Yes, people do actually buy it either because they didn't get the free upgrade to Windows 10 when they had a chance or because it's a new computer. There are still ways of getting the upgrade to Windows 10 but it involves a bit of trickiness.

I don't know if I will ever upgrade to Windows 11 but I expect I will be forced into to continue playing my Windows games. The system I'm using now, a low-end Toshiba laptop, doesn't have Windows on it. If I ever fix my old (and much faster machine), it has Windows 10 on it, but just for games pretty much. And maybe to keep my skills fresh to help friends with Windows problems.

Windows 11 interface looks like a cross between Ubuntu and MacOS from what I've seen. But I don't really follow it much. As I said, I mainly had it just to play games and help friends. They won't have Windows 11 for a while so who cares?
Title: Re: Woe is me - apparently Window 11 comes out mid summer.
Post by: buster on November 18, 2021, 03:23:54 PM
One thing will be lost going from Win10 to 11, that I didn't even know about. The task bar in Win10 can be put, a la Fox, at the left hand side of the screen. Win11 loses this.
Title: Re: Woe is me - apparently Window 11 comes out mid summer.
Post by: fox on November 18, 2021, 04:25:08 PM
I didn't know that, Buster. Thanks for pointing that out, even though it doesn't matter that much to me (in Windows). I use Windows so rarely that I don't bother customizing it, other than to change the desktop background and put the icons of apps I do use on the taskbar.