I hadn't realized how many choices there are for my RPi4. Going to the BerryBoot page, I see a number of light distros, including Raspberry Pi OS, Q4OS, DietPi and RaspArch. Are any of you using a desktop OS on your Pi that is different from Raspberry Pi OS?
On my RPi 3b, if I recall correctly, I think I briefly ran the Rasbian desktop OS. I believe Rasbian is now called Raspberry Pi OS??
I think it ran quite well, but I didn't spend much time using it. I wound up using the Pi for other things such as LibreElec, MotionEye OS and Volumio.
Don't you have to install a distro to run these things? LibreElec, for example, is a distro set up to run Kodi, I think. There is a version of LibreElec for BerryBoot that I had installed on the Pi 3; it ran pretty well. Unfortunately, there isn't one on the BerryBoot website for the Pi 4. You can get LibreElec for the Pi4 on the LibreElec website, but it has to be adapted in some way to be installed on the BerryBoot booter.
When I do use it, I just use the Raspberry Pi OS. But I've experimented with RISC OS and LibreELEC just to see what they look like. I noticed just now that they've updated NOOBS with some different OSes: Recalbox, Lakka, Screenly OSE, and TLXOS. I don't think I've heard of any of these before.
No you don't install a distro. LibreElec, Volumio and MotionEye programs all have the underlying Pi OS included. You just image these programs to the SD card of the RPi and they boot up when you power up the Pi.
Quote from: fox on January 10, 2021, 07:38:35 AM
Don't you have to install a distro to run these things? LibreElec, for example, is a distro set up to run Kodi, I think. There is a version of LibreElec for BerryBoot that I had installed on the Pi 3; it ran pretty well. Unfortunately, there isn't one on the BerryBoot website for the Pi 4. You can get LibreElec for the Pi4 on the LibreElec website, but it has to be adapted in some way to be installed on the BerryBoot booter.
Quote from: ssfc72 on January 11, 2021, 02:55:23 AM
No you don't install a distro. LibreElec, Volumio and MotionEye programs all have the underlying Pi OS included. You just image these programs to the SD card of the RPi and they boot up when you power up the Pi.
Thanks; I didn't know that. But I suspect that the underlying OS is highly modified, probably with a lot of components missing. Otherwise, installing Raspberry Pi OS and adding LibreElec would run the same as an installation of LibreElec. Maybe what they do is install the basic components of RPI OS and none of the irrelevant programs and set it to start in LibreElec?
Incidentally, I just tried a new distro on my RPi 4 - Manjaro. It shows as an option when you install BerryBoot for the first time, so I tried it. Seems to run very smoothly; as well as Raspberry Pi OS. Very attractive. Uses the LXQT desktop, which takes some getting used to. Biggest problem for me is not being used to an Arch-based distro when it comes to finding and installing new software. I know that there is Pacman/AUR for Arch on a computer, but I don't think there are Raspberry Pi versions.
Quote from: ssfc72 on January 11, 2021, 02:55:23 AM
No you don't install a distro. LibreElec, Volumio and MotionEye programs all have the underlying Pi OS included. You just image these programs to the SD card of the RPi and they boot up when you power up the Pi.
Not be one of those guys, but the Raspberry Pi people call LibreELEC a distribution as well as an OS (https://www.raspberrypi.org/software/operating-systems/). The people who make LibreELEC call it a distribution and OS (https://libreelec.tv/about/), too. But is it basically just a light OS with Kodi on top (perhaps Raspberry Pi OS for that version) but that pretty much describes any specialized distribution. Maybe you're confusing LibreELEC with Kodi which is a software program that you can install it on any mainstream distribution?
I can't speak to the others. What is Volumio?
Quote from: fox on January 11, 2021, 07:57:50 AM
I know that there is Pacman/AUR for Arch on a computer, but I don't think there are Raspberry Pi versions.
There should be but it wouldn't be as complete as Majaro's on a PC.
I finally got around to booting up my new RPi4 with 2G of memory.
I installed the Rasberry OS ( takes up about 8G of the sd card) on the sd card and it seems to run very well, in the small amount of time that i have used it. I am running the Pi4 while posting this message.
i plugged a cheapey usb sound card dongle into the usb port and it works well and I was able to watch a movie on YouTube.
My next test will be to see if I can get Volumio (internet radio) to run on this Pi4.
With BerryBoot, I have mine set up to run from an SSD. The next step for me is to set this up so that it runs without the SD card at all.
Quote from: ssfc72 on January 13, 2021, 05:12:31 PM
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My next test will be to see if I can get Volumio (internet radio) to run on this Pi4.
Does it run? I think there is a Volumio option in BerryBoot if you want to try that.
I'm surprised that no one has tried Ubuntu 20.10 Mate version. I saw two YouTube videos on it, and it apparently runs very well. I'm not a big fan of the Mate desktop myself, mainly for aesthetic reasons.
I took the micro SD card (with the Volumio boot) and put it in the RPi 4 and it didn't boot. I am going to do a fresh install of Volumio on the micro SD card and try again.
Quote from: fox on January 18, 2021, 08:14:07 AM
Does it run? I think there is a Volumio option in BerryBoot if you want to try that.
Quote from: ssfc72 on January 18, 2021, 01:43:05 PM
I took the micro SD card (with the Volumio boot) and put it in the RPi 4 and it didn't boot. I am going to do a fresh install of Volumio on the micro SD card and try again.
If it doesn't work, try it in BerryBoot. You just download the BerryBoot installer, copy it to your SD card and when you start it up you have options to add distros. As I recall, Voluminio is under the Appliance tab.
Well if you haven't had enough fun trying light distros adapted for the RPi, you might be happy to learn that MX Linux, #1 on DistroWatch, has an RPi version in beta. You can download it here (https://9to5linux.com/mx-linux-now-has-a-raspberry-pi-edition-you-can-try-right-now). Buster, I would have expected you to jump all over this one if you only had a Pi. :)
Just for fun, I tried Ubuntu 20.10 on my Pi 4; I did it in BerryBoot and installed it on an SD card. It froze twice during setup, but eventually installed. It looks just like the desktop version, but it runs very slowly, with noticeable delays in opening even basic apps like Files, and in closing windows. No comparison to Raspberry Pi OS (both 64-bit), which is more responsive in every way. In 20.10, the first upgrade took a half hour or more, and didn't improve its responsiveness. I suspect that the problem is Gnome; it might run a lot better with a lighter desktop.
I'm sure it would run better on an SSD, but I wouldn't recommend it on an RPi unless it has something specific that you need.
I tried Ubuntu MATE on it, a lighter Linux distro.
It's not light enough I guess. Because it ran so slowly that I'd click on something and maybe 30 seconds to a minute later, it'd do it. It was awful. I thought there was something wrong with the SD card. Put Raspberry Pi OS on it and it worked fine again. Maybe it was just a bad install of Ubuntu MATE to the SD card. It also took a long time to install.
I don't think MATE is very light unless you compare it to the Gnome desktop environment. I remember having an old machine and finding it almost as slow as Gnome on Linux Mint years ago. I wondered why and went into a Ubuntu IRC room and one of the users mentioned that the slowness was from me not having a separate video card and relying on an (old) Intel graphics chipset. I installed Linux Mint Xfce edition and it worked better.
It'd be neat if they had a version of Linux Lite for the Raspberry Pi since it's what I'm used to. Although it's Xfce-based so it might not run that well. In Preferences, you can choose how much RAM to allocate to video so that could help with slowness, too. Having only 1 GB of RAM, I didn't think it'd be worth it since only a few programs ended up using most of that RAM, especially running a browser.
Here (https://www.raspberrypi.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=66&t=133691) is a good article on the RAM use by different desktops, standardized by starting with Raspberry Pi OS Lite and adding different desktops to it. I learned from the article that standard Raspberry Pi OS uses a desktop called RPD (Raspberry Pi Desktop), a modified version of LXDE. This is apparently the lightest DE available, but other light ones such as LXDE itself, XFCE and Mate, are not much heavier. But these aren't running on Ubuntu, and I think that the Debian-based Raspberry Pi OS is much lighter than any version of Ubuntu. According to the article, the Lite version is not just lacking a DE, but also a bunch of apps that are not needed when you're using the Pi to run a single app (like OpenMediaVault or NextCloud). In your case, you are using it on a 3B, when has much less RAM and a slower CPU than my Pi 4 with 4 GB RAM. I did try running Ubuntu Mate 16.04 on my former 3B, and it was noticeably slower than Raspbian.
Interesting article.
I agree that Raspberry Pi Desktop is much lighter. I noted that when I first got one and it was using under 200 MB of RAM with several applications running.
But there's more than RAM usage of the Desktop Environment that affects performance. In fact, I'd argue that unless you're actually close to using up all your RAM with normal use, which granted you likely would be on the Pi, how much RAM an OS takes up doesn't matter. For example, on that old desktop that I was talking about? Linux Mint KDE, Cinnamon and MATE were all dogs. I can't claim to know what it was at the time but as several YouTube videos have noted, Plasma takes up about the same amount of RAM as Xfce. But Xfce ran a lot better and does pretty much everywhere on very old machines or lower-powered ones like the Pi. Because it doesn't have as great graphics demand. Xfce lacks a lot of the bells and whistles that more standard DEs have. I don't where everyone gets this idea that lower RAM use means better performance because it's not nearly that simple. But for the Pi, yeah, it can make a big difference on the older models. With the model you have, probably not so much. All the DEs will use far less RAM than what you have available. Performance will vary quite a bit depending on the graphical requirements though and of course, how many programs you have running in typical usage.
OK, just for fun, I tried installing Volumio on my SSD using the BerryBoot booter. As I noted previously, there is a Volumio version formatted for BerryBoot, and that is what I installed. The installation was done on wifi, and that may have affected the outcome. Volumio installed OK, but booting it just takes you to a command line interface. I could sign into Volumio with the default username and password, but couldn't do anything beyond that. I tried going to another computer and SSH'ing into Volumio using first, the IP address of my Pi, and then the IP address Volumio gives as the default when not connected to Ethernet. Neither worked; I couldn't get in. I also couldn't sign in through a browser, so in the end, I never saw the Volumio graphical interface and I couldn't set it up.
I can't say that this wouldn't have worked had I used BerryBoot with Ethernet access. Bill, if you try Volumio, on BerryBoot, I suggest you first set up BerryBoot with Ethernet connected, and then install and run Volumio with the Ethernet plugged into your Pi. I remember your saying that you were using Volumio to give you internet radio. How is it better than using Rhythmbox on a light RPi distro like Rasberry Pi OS?
I tried one other distro on BerryBoot; openSUSE KDE. It is one of several distros that BB has set up to download automatically if you choose to install it. You can install it initially, or add it later. I did the latter. It installed and booted up all right. But working with it was painful, whether dragging windows, loading apps or closing them. I wouldn't recommend it.
Quote from: Jason Wallwork on January 23, 2021, 11:29:47 PM
I tried Ubuntu MATE on it, a lighter Linux distro.
It's not light enough I guess. Because it ran so slowly that I'd click on something and maybe 30 seconds to a minute later, it'd do it. It was awful. I thought there was something wrong with the SD card. Put Raspberry Pi OS on it and it worked fine again. Maybe it was just a bad install of Ubuntu MATE to the SD card. It also took a long time to install.
....
An article just came out on (https://raspberrypiuser.co.uk/ubuntu-mate-on-the-raspberry-pi-400) using Ubuntu Mate on the RPi 400. The review was very positive, suggesting either that Ubuntu Mate for the Pi has improved a lot since the 16.04 version, or that a Pi 4 has enough horsepower to run it decently. I haven't tried it and am not planning to because I don't like it aesthetically and although I used to like Gnome 2 in Ubuntu, I have come to like the more modern version of Gnome. But you might want to try the current version on your Pi 3B and see if it is any more responsive.
Quote from: fox on January 25, 2021, 08:14:09 AM
I tried one other distro on BerryBoot; openSUSE KDE. It is one of several distros that BB has set up to download automatically if you choose to install it. You can install it initially, or add it later. I did the latter. It installed and booted up all right. But working with it was painful, whether dragging windows, loading apps or closing them. I wouldn't recommend it.
If you turn off all the eye candy, it might run a lot better. I can't remember the exact settings but it's in there somewhere. Probably under Window Effects or something similar.
Quote from: fox on January 25, 2021, 08:19:45 AM
An article just came out on (https://raspberrypiuser.co.uk/ubuntu-mate-on-the-raspberry-pi-400) using Ubuntu Mate on the RPi 400. The review was very positive, suggesting either that Ubuntu Mate for the Pi has improved a lot since the 16.04 version, or that a Pi 4 has enough horsepower to run it decently. I haven't tried it and am not planning to because I don't like it aesthetically and although I used to like Gnome 2 in Ubuntu, I have come to like the more modern version of Gnome. But you might want to try the current version on your Pi 3B and see if it is any more responsive.
That's what I tried, the most recent version. It was awful. The Pi 4's better processor and graphics processor probably helps a lot. But it still befuddles the mind why it was so bad unless they were only thinking of the Pi 4 when they developed the more recent versions.
I am not familiar with using or what Rhythmbox has to offer, as an internet radio, using the RPi.
I do know that the Volumio program installed on the micro SD card of the RPi 3B works very slick and gives me access to any type of music, both from normal radio stations around the world and internet music streaming. I then use any device, cell phone, tablet or computer browser, to view the Volumio GUI and search for whatever type of music that I wish to listen to. The music selection then gets played from the RPi, running Volumio. The RPi only needs to feed to a pair of speakers. No keyboard, mouse or monitor is needed, for the RPi.
Quote from: fox on January 25, 2021, 07:51:59 AM
OK, just for fun, I tried installing Volumio on my SSD using the BerryBoot booter. As I noted previously, there is a Volumio version formatted for BerryBoot, and that is what I installed. The installation was done on wifi, and that may have affected the outcome. Volumio installed OK, but booting it just takes you to a command line interface. I could sign into Volumio with the default username and password, but couldn't do anything beyond that. I tried going to another computer and SSH'ing into Volumio using first, the IP address of my Pi, and then the IP address Volumio gives as the default when not connected to Ethernet. Neither worked; I couldn't get in. I also couldn't sign in through a browser, so in the end, I never saw the Volumio graphical interface and I couldn't set it up.
I can't say that this wouldn't have worked had I used BerryBoot with Ethernet access. Bill, if you try Volumio, on BerryBoot, I suggest you first set up BerryBoot with Ethernet connected, and then install and run Volumio with the Ethernet plugged into your Pi. I remember your saying that you were using Volumio to give you internet radio. How is it better than using Rhythmbox on a light RPi distro like Rasberry Pi OS?
Rhythmbox has a bunch of radio stations pre-programmed with the app and you can add more. But this is a GUI app; you access it locally, not through the internet. From you description, it sounds like Volumio doesn't have a GUI on the app itself, but once installed, you access it via a browser like you do in OpenMediaVault. Is that how it works? If so, the reason Volumio didn't work for me is that I installed it on BerryBoot without an Ethernet connection. So it probably never set up. I might try a reinstall with a wired connection. Have you tried it yet, Bill?
Manjaro has several desktop versions available for the Pi. I mentioned LXQT earlier, as it was one of the automatic installations available from BerryBoot. This morning I found a YouTube video review of Manjaro Mate (available here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lnwUSrzO8aY)). It looks nice and appears to be pretty responsive, like the LXQT version. The Manjaro site is nicely set up for downloading installations for various SBCs, and they support quite a few.
Quote from: fox on January 26, 2021, 08:09:56 AM
Manjaro has several desktop versions available for the Pi. I mentioned LXQT earlier, as it was one of the automatic installations available from BerryBoot. This morning I found a YouTube video review of Manjaro Mate (available here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lnwUSrzO8aY)). It looks nice and appears to be pretty responsive, like the LXQT version. The Manjaro site is nicely set up for downloading installations for various SBCs, and they support quite a few.
That's a thought. They've customized the Xfce flavour of Manjaro to look, as Borat would say, "very niiiiiice", probably the best look I've ever seen that uses Xfce. LXQt would likely be a lot better performing though, but probably not any better performing than Raspberry Pi OS although it'd likely have a lot more features. And since Manjaro lets anyone contribute programs to the Alternative User Repository, there might be more set up for it unless it's a proprietary program. The video says in its description that it's using a Pi 4 and has been tested on the Pi 400. And it was tried running off an SSD. Not sure how well Manjaro MATE would perform on a Pi 3 like I have off a USB stick (only USB 2.x supported on the Pi 3) or an SD card. The slowest part of a computer is its hard drive so having an SSD or at least a USB 3 flash drive can make a huge difference. I really like the look and convenience of the Pi 400 though, so it's useful just to have a look for the future.
I'm also going to have to try out BerryBoot. Is there a minimum size of drive you need for it? I don't really need to multi-boot but I like the feature you mentioned about how easy it makes it to install a distribution on the Pi and a greater selection than NOOBS.
On one site I read a 4 GB minimum. On an eBay site where you can buy a preloaded BerryBoot SD card, the smallest size they were selling is 16 GB.
Quote from: fox on January 25, 2021, 07:51:59 AM
OK, just for fun, I tried installing Volumio on my SSD using the BerryBoot booter.
....
I can't say that this wouldn't have worked had I used BerryBoot with Ethernet access. ....
I can now tell you that Volumio works when loaded with the BerryBoot booter if you set it up with Ethernet. Run Volumio on the pi and sign in. Get your IP address and then go to that in a browser from your computer. You will get the Volumio dashboard. The only problem I had after that was figuring out how to play a music station or fileserver content on the remote device. I'll post that in Support.
Well, Volumio on the RPi does render a GUI, that you view by typing in the PI ip address in your device (cell phone, tablet , computer) and you access the Volumio GUI, on the Pi, through your wifi home network.
You use your device to select, from the Volumio GUI on the RPI, the radio station/internet streaming music service. Volumio then grabs the music from the internet.
Your device is only used to operate the Volumio GUI. I don't think the device you use, is suppose to also play the music. The music is delivered by speakers connected to the PI.
I don't think I will try Volumio from a Berryboot install. I just want to have a RPi run as Volumio, stand alone internet radio and I don't have a need to also boot other OS's on the Pi.
Quote from: fox on January 26, 2021, 07:24:19 AM
Rhythmbox has a bunch of radio stations pre-programmed with the app and you can add more. But this is a GUI app; you access it locally, not through the internet. From you description, it sounds like Volumio doesn't have a GUI on the app itself, but once installed, you access it via a browser like you do in OpenMediaVault. Is that how it works? If so, the reason Volumio didn't work for me is that I installed it on BerryBoot without an Ethernet connection. So it probably never set up. I might try a reinstall with a wired connection. Have you tried it yet, Bill?
Quote from: ssfc72 on January 26, 2021, 03:29:28 PM
Well, Volumio on the RPi does render a GUI, that you view by typing in the PI ip address in your device (cell phone, tablet , computer) and you access the Volumio GUI, on the Pi, through your wifi home network.
You use your device to select, from the Volumio GUI on the RPI, the radio station/internet streaming music service. Volumio then grabs the music from the internet.
Your device is only used to operate the Volumio GUI. I don't think the device you use, is suppose to also play the music. The music is delivered by speakers connected to the PI.
That being the case, Volumio is set up quite different from OpenMediaVault on a Pi. In both of these, you control the Pi from a remote device. But with OpenMediaVault, you access the files from other computers in your network, whereas in Volumio, you play the music from speakers connected to the Pi. No wonder I was confused. I figured that the point of Volumio on the Pi was that it is the "server", and it serves your music on other devices.
Ok, I now can see why you were confused, after also working with OMV.
Edit : Without using Volumio on the RPi, you could actually listen to internet radio music on any of your devices, that are connected to your home network (which is connected to the internet), by running a music streaming app.
This however would be a bit of overkill to use a $800 cell phone to listen to internet music, when a $50 RPi and some good small speakers , can provide a nice small compact internet radio, with very good sound quality. :-)
Quote from: ssfc72 on January 27, 2021, 12:43:41 AM
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Actually, you could listen to internet radio music on any of your devices, that are connected to your home network (which is connected to the internet).
....
My computers are connected to the home network by wifi, but I couldn't figure out how to listen to music in Volumio from any of them. In all cases, I connected to Volumio running on my Pi through Firefox on the computer. I could locate the music (or radio station) in Volumio, but it wouldn't play on the computer - only on the Pi. So how do I get it to play on the computer? Is there an app I need to have for this to happen? I know that there are apps you can use on phones for this.
On the other hand, if the point of Volumio is to get high quality sound by hooking good speakers up to the Volumio device, then perhaps there would be no advantage to running Volumio on a computer that isn't already hooked up to high quality speakers. I can play any music or internet radio station on my computer through Rhythmbox or similar apps. If the question is streaming music connected to the Pi running Volumio, I can do that by running OpenMediaVault on the Pi with the music stored on the server and connect to it from my computer. Playing Volumio on the phone would be a different matter, as phone storage is limited, and an app to stream music available on the Pi running Volumio would be useful. Plus, access of internet radio stations through Volumio would be much faster than accessing them through a browser on a phone.
Sorry Mike, I didn't make myself clear enough, when I said " you could listen to internet radio music on any of your devices, that are connected to your home network (which is connected to the internet"
I have edited my post to clarify what I was trying to convey. See previous post.
Quote from: ssfc72 on January 27, 2021, 12:43:41 AM
This however would be a bit of overkill to use a $800 cell phone to listen to internet music, when a $50 RPi and some good small speakers , can provide a nice small compact internet radio, with very good sound quality. :-)
Are you judging me? You sound like you're judging me (I used Spotify). ;) But FWIW, my phone is around $200 if you bought it outright. So it's not as much overkill. :) And it's a lot easier carrying around than a Pi.
The other downside to using a cell phone at home, as an internet radio, is that the battery of the cell phone is probably going to fail quicker, from being drained more quickly and having more charge cycles done to it. :-)
For those fans of MX Linux, a fancied-up Fluxbox version is available for the Pi 3 and Pi 4. You can find a review here (https://9to5linux.com/first-look-at-mx-linux-fluxbox-on-the-raspberry-pi-4). The review is very positive. Harry, you are going to have to buy a Pi just to try this. :)
Quote from: ssfc72 on January 30, 2021, 02:35:40 AM
The other downside to using a cell phone at home, as an internet radio, is that the battery of the cell phone is probably going to fail quicker, from being drained more quickly and having more charge cycles done to it. :-)
Oh, I see where you're going now. I was thinking when I'm away from home. When I'm at home I just listen to my music on my PC. But the RPi is certainly a much lower power option than a PC. My Nest Mini also lets me listen to music. The speaker on it is pretty good but I'm not an audiophile so I probably couldn't tell unless it was really bad. :)