Quote from: buster on December 15, 2018, 08:26:26 PM
Buster thinks you should at least try MXLinux for a few days. :)
....
MXLinux just released version 18RC1. I am inclined to at least try it, in particular to see if I can get it to deep sleep on my laptop. I may wait until version 18 is released.
Mike wrote: "I may wait until version 18 is released."
Testing a not quite ready release seems to me unfair to the developers. Making a judgment on something with known bugs is bound to be wrong. The early releases are for the fans so feedback can be given and problems found.
Quote from: buster on December 18, 2018, 10:02:52 AM
....Testing a not quite ready release seems to me unfair to the developers. Making a judgment on something with known bugs is bound to be wrong. The early releases are for the fans so feedback can be given and problems found.
I'm not sure what your point is here. I'm not making a judgment on anything, and the "known bugs" relate to Nvidia graphics cards, which I don't have in my laptop. At this point, I'm mainly interested in seeing whether this laptop will go into a deep sleep with any distro, and this one got my attention, thanks to you. :)
Mike wrote: "the 'known bugs' relate to Nvidia graphics cards, which I don't have in my laptop."
Could be that is the only bug, but at this time I would doubt it. I would be disappointed though if you gave up because of some undetected errors at this stage of development. I think this distro is made for you - not totally simple, different from what you are used to so you need some learning, and quick. Bar on the left side you can put favorites on might remind you of Unity that you used to like.
MX Linux stable version wouldn't boot my laptop; starts up but stops with a blank screen and no video. I even tried the failsafe option. Version 18RC does. Looks interesting; I'm going to try it.
Interesting!
Mike wrote: 'Version 18RC does. Looks interesting; I'm going to try it'
So,so,so???? What happened, what happened, what happened???????????????? How is it, eh,eh,eh????
This is from Distrowatch:
The MX Linux team have announced the release of version 18 of their distribution. The new release is based on Debian 9.6 "Stretch" and features both core system updates and new versions of desktop applications.
So now the finished upgrade can be tested. I'll bet the final can be updated from the beta.
Just updated my MXLinux straight from 17.1 to 18.0 final by following the simple click and enter instructions. Used the special MX package manager to upgrade the kernel to I think 19.5. Got loads of new desktop wallpaper. Runs as always after the reboot.
Bare metal or virtual machine?
VMWare with Win10 as host - 45 gig hd, 2 gig ram, 2 core allocated for MXLinux virtual install.
Works really well.
Added KDE to MXLinux. Easy install from their simple software manager (not Synaptic). Can choose KDE or Xfce during sign in.
Surprised that it feels as light and quick in either! Good graphics.
Interesting though that the guest/host files can be seen from both KDE and Xfce, but they only work in Xfce! So drag and drop with the host works only with Xfce.
No real problem because moving from one to the other is only seconds, but it is rather odd. And I'm surprised that both feel responsive and alert as I use them. Thought the KDE would be slower, but then my Suse is quick with KDE, except for booting and closing, (Can't match MXLinux here.)
The released version of 18 works well as a live usb, but when I went to install it, the installer didn't see the partition that I had prepared for it, even when choosing the custom option. I then downloaded Q4OS to try it and found the same thing. It was the 10th partition on that drive; maybe that hsd something to do with it? However. Ubuntu LTS installed ok there, so I'm not sure what's going on.
Strange. I don't know about Q4OS but MX Linux is based on Debian, not Ubuntu so maybe that has something to do with it. Though I'm unfamiliar with Linux haven't any trouble with partitions unless it's beyond 16. Perhaps the OSes just want to be installed on a primary partition for some reason? Does gparted or kparted see the partitions in live mode?
Quote from: Jason Wallwork on December 27, 2018, 04:11:56 AM
....Does gparted or kparted see the partitions in live mode?
Yes gparted does see it in live mode. And interestingly, if going through the installer, that partition shows as a swap option. Weird, eh?
Quote from: fox on December 27, 2018, 10:19:12 AM
Yes gparted does see it in live mode. And interestingly, if going through the installer, that partition shows as a swap option. Weird, eh?
That is weird. Was the partition formatted? Perhaps the installer just didn't recognize it as a potential place to install? Or maybe it just thought it needed to be bigger?
Sometimes the installers just seem to get confused. Was putting Linux Mint on Ivo's notebook and it couldn't see the Windows partition. Offered to either use the entire drive for LM only or "Something Else". So I went that route but it's not something a beginner should be expected to do.
Mike wrote: "the installer didn't see the partition that I had prepared for it, even when choosing the custom option."
That's a shame. Hope the problem resolves itself. Or you find a workaround.
Quote from: Jason Wallwork on December 27, 2018, 11:24:34 AM
Quote from: fox on December 27, 2018, 10:19:12 AM
That is weird. Was the partition formatted? Perhaps the installer just didn't recognize it as a potential place to install? Or maybe it just thought it needed to be bigger?
....
I tried it formatted and not; didn't matter. I tried formatting it as ext4, xfs and fat32; didn't matter. It's size was larger than the minimum and larger than some partitions it was willing to format to. I think that if I want to install mx, it will have to wipe a Ubuntu partition.
I have it installed now; I had to install it on a partition that had basic Ubuntu on it. I installed it without grub and just updated grub from the default Ubuntu partition. Only problem was it wouldn't boot until I turned off secure boot. I'm running a test now with the lid down to see how much power it consumes in hibernate. It will be interesting to see if it hibernates properly without consuming too much power, as Ubuntu hibernating is consuming 2% of battery charge per hour. Interesting also because MX had TLP already installed (an energy saving app). If MX performs better in hibernate mode, I'm going to wonder if it has anything to do with secure boot.
Unfortunately, MX doesn't have the answer to excessive energy consumption in hibernation mode. Otherwise it's a nice distro.
True hibernate shouldn't have any energy consumption. It basically stores everything in RAM to a disk file and then shuts down. You do need a swap that is equal in size to the amount of RAM you have for it to work thought the option to hibernate shouldn't be there if you don't have it.
Sounds like you're using some kind of hybrid-sleep mode, a cross between hibernation and sleep. The laptop I bought from you have something like this mode but I was able to turn it off in the BIOS. Kept wondering why it had no energy left when I'd go to use it after not having used it for days. If I recall correctly, it's Intel Rapid Start which basically acts like hibernation but actually puts your system in a sleep mode but with a lot less power usage (but not zero). There is a delay setting associated with this in the BIOS that transfers the system from sleep to hibernation after this amount of time. The advantage is that your system starts up faster than from hibernation. This could be your culprit:
https://software.intel.com/en-us/articles/what-is-intel-rapid-start-technology
Thanks for that, Jason. I do have a swap file enabled, and it is larger than RAM. I'm certain that you are right about the Intel Rapid Start being the culprit, but I don't know how to fix this. Only S4 state is enabled in this laptop, and when looking at it from the Ubuntu side, the sleep mode enabled is called s2idle. The deep option is listed, but not enabled. I can enable it with a Terminal command, but then the laptop doesn't wake up. I'm pretty sure that the s2idle state itself isn't the problem because on my 2015 xps 13, the default is also s2idle, and less than 10% of battery life is lost after closing the lid for 24 hours. The older Broadwell processor in that laptop probably doesn't use Intel Rapid Start. Rapid Start might be a nice thing to have if one is using Windows, but I'm not.
Interesting also is that when running in Windows, closing the lid seems to invoke a deeper sleep state (judging by energy loss), but if left that way for more than an hour, it doesn't wake up at all and has to be rebooted. I'm sure that this isn't appropriate behaviour.
None of this has anything directly to do with MX Linux, although in the test I did, hibernating in MX caused a much greater battery loss than it did in Ubuntu. I have no idea why. But by trying alternate distros, I'm hoping for a "Linux Mint effect" on this laptop. I am referring to my experience in running various distros on my 2015 5k iMac. The problem was support for the relatively new Radeon video card in that computer. Initially, all distros were taking 5 minutes to boot it up; that is all distros except Linux Mint, which for some reason worked fine. (Later kernels supported the 2015 iMac out of the box without that delay.) If I can find my "Linux Mint" distro for this laptop, I'll use it most of the time because when not traveling, I mostly use the laptop in the evening for an hour or less and then put it back to sleep. I suppose I could just shut it down when not in use, but this deep sleep/hibernation mode is very convenient for me.
Per a suggestion from Bill (ssfc72), we split off this discussion into a new topic here (https://forums.plugintolinux.ca/index.php/topic,675.0.html) because it became more a discussion of power modes and Linux. We'll leave this topic open for more discussion of MX Linux 18.
To bring it back to MX, any idea why it wouldn't run after it was installed without turning secure boot off? The only "unusual" thing I did during installation was to not let it install a bootloader. I did this because Ubuntu is my main distro on this laptop, and I have it's bootloader customized (with grub-customizer). I know that updating grub in Ubuntu would add MX to the menu, which it did.
I'm not sure. MX Linux is based on Debian but I don't know if they do any other kernel customizations and if they do that would affect whether their kernel is recognized as I would imagine that Debian kernels are in the list of recognized kernel images. A document about secure boot here (https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-hardware/design/device-experiences/oem-secure-boot):
QuoteSecure boot is a security standard developed by members of the PC industry to help make sure that a device boots using only software that is trusted by the Original Equipment Manufacturer (OEM). When the PC starts, the firmware checks the signature of each piece of boot software, including UEFI firmware drivers (also known as Option ROMs), EFI applications, and the operating system. If the signatures are valid, the PC boots, and the firmware gives control to the operating system.
The TL;DR of it is that MX Linux isn't recognized by the signatures or keys in the database stored in UEFI, at least I think that's the case. Are any other distros installed without boot managers?
I should have checked this beforehand. According to this document (https://mxlinux.org/wiki/system/uefi), MX Linux only boots with secure boot off.
I may have also discovered how to make this distro hibernate properly; see this (https://mxlinux.org/wiki/system/hibernate). I'll have to try this to see the effect because MX Linux does appear to be hibernating "properly" in that it hibernates and wakes up. Problem is that when I tried it, it used up way too much power while it was in hibernation. But I didn't do any of the suggested edits.
Interesting. And their wiki pages look quite helpful judging based on these two.
When you say it is "hibernating 'properly' in that it hibernates and wakes up", what do you mean? From what you posted before it sounds like you expect to tap a key and a system will wake up from hibernation, if it's doing it properly, is that correct? Because even the page of the document you cited from the wiki says that's not how hibernation works, it writes the RAM to the disk and shuts down.
All I meant was that it goes into hibernation or some low-power state when I close the lid or select "hibernate" from the menu, and it comes out of that state when I raise the lid. As to what it's actually doing, I don't know. Whatever it's doing, it's using more power than it should in a low-power state.
However, I just checked again in MX. The menu allows for suspension; no mention of hibernation. If I type "sudo hibernate" in a terminal, I get "hibernate warning: Tuxonice signature file not found". So I found in Synaptic a package called "Tuxonice-rui" and installed it. Trying to hibernate again from the terminal, though, I get the same error message. A google search on the message doesn't bring up anything on MX at all, and nothing in the links for other distros (mostly Ubuntu) tell me anything I can use to solve this.
I'm guessing from all this that closing the lid is just suspending the laptop and that isn't a super low-power state.
Mike, while you are in MX Linux, you might want to try the Budgie desktop. I have KDE installed as well an Xfce, and I can log out of one and change the login to try another. (Top right corner of sign in page.) Using a very nice, and quick, KDE for the last week or so.
Find MXTools > Simple Package Installer > Desktop Environments
Pretty slick.
Budgie seems a work in progress to me. Quick but quirky. Wouldn't hold resolution change. Certainly light.
Trying out MX now as a VM. I've never cared for the appearance of Xfce in most distros but in MX they've set up a soft elegant look about it. The program menu looks really good and they choose to put it on the left but without the usual over-sized icons.
I went back to my MX installation on my laptop and found that window movement was very difficult. When I get near an edge I want to drag, I get the briefest drag symbol, but it isn't stable and it takes a lot of precision movement to be able to drag the edge. (Much more than Ubuntu on the same laptop.) I can move the window or expand it to full screen without problem; only the resizing is difficult. Is there some fix for this?
Moderator Message: Find replies to this question here (https://forums.plugintolinux.ca/index.php/topic,684.0.html).
Ok, finally did the virtual install of MXLinux, on a Host Mint 18.3, on my HP 12" notebook, 4 G Ram.
Also installed the 2 vmware tools programs, using Synaptic in the virtual MXLinux.
I had to manually set the proper display resolution for the notebook (approx. 1300X700 ) as MXLinux chose to use a default 800X700 (ugh!)
Full screen view works fine, as does drag and drop, of files between the Host and Guest OS.
MXLinux works very nicely!
A long journey!
Usually when you boot MX into a regular window, and wait while it finishes, and then you click full screen in VMWare, it will ignore whatever you set as the resolution, and I believe allow the downloaded tools software to automatically put the screen into the hardware's resolution.
When it is full screen you can see if the resolution is not perfect. Check your screen edges.
And a development that to me is unexpected. If you put the data span for hits per day in Distrowatch to 30 days (the last month), MX Linux has a substantial lead in interest compared to all other distros. I agree, it doesn't mean people are using it, but they certainly are interested in it around the world.
I think it's a reasonable interest. I wonder how many of the people checking it out remember the glory years of Mepis, which was, in fact, the desktop on Marilyn's first computer. :)
From the moderator:
I should have done this earlier. I split the discussion about Fox's window resizing issue into a new topic here (https://forums.plugintolinux.ca/index.php/topic,684.0.html) and it's in support.
It's better if you need help with a specific problem to do that in Support. You could always put a link to this discussion if you think it's related enough. I could have done it with Bill's VMware/MX Linux 18 install woes too but it's breaks the thread up too much if we split over and over.
I apologize if this has already been covered, but I think that all that has been said about running MX Linux in a vm has been based on VMware Player. I just installed it in VirtualBox with Ubuntu as a host on my 2015 5k iMac. Installation was quick and smooth. I gave it 2gb memory and 128mb for the video. It runs well and can resize without problem, but the option to enable usb 2 and 3, or host-guest dragging are not enabled in a default installation. I had to download the Virtualbox Additions within the vm and install them from a terminal to enable these functions. In the vm MX uses about 365mb RAM in xfce with no applications running and about 475mb using Gnome instead of xfce. I think that the relatively low RAM usage in Gnome is due to no compositor running, though one can enable a compositor in MX Gnome.
Mike wrote: " the option to enable usb 2 and 3, ...is not enabled in a default installation "
While this may be true that it's not default, the only thing I would have done was look for the guest modules in the repositories. (I don't do terminals except under duress.) And after I put in the usb stick, it showed up at the top of the menu of /home/harry in MX!!!!!
Ubuntu derivatives usually supply the modules in my experience. But it's not much of a search in Synaptic to find them.
The previous post was completely changed with an edit. I was so wrong it's embarrassing. Sorry if anyone read it when first posted.
Quote from: buster on January 18, 2019, 06:30:57 PM
Mike wrote: " the option to enable usb 2 and 3, ...is not enabled in a default installation "
While this may be true that it's not default, the only thing I would have done was look for the guest modules in the repositories. .... And after I put in the usb stick, it showed up at the top of the menu of /home/harry in MX!!!!!
Can you clarify? What does a usb stick have to do with this? Were the modules in the MX repository and did you download them, or were they in your home folder on the vm without doing anything? Were these individual modules for things like usb, or all of the guest additions? I presume that this was in VMware Player, not VirtualBox. I think that in VirtualBox you don't see individual modules, just the Additions package.
In my case, VirtualBox provides the options to mount the Additions in the virtualized optical drive. I tried that; the Additions iso mounted but wouldn't run. This must have happened to me before because I knew to try doing it from a Terminal without even searching the error message. The Additions folder was mounted in /media. In the folder was a run file with a .sh suffix. I knew to run such files with an "sh" command, so that's what I did. I think that what it did was first unmount the Additions that had been installed by default, and it then installed the more complete Additions package.
Mike wrote: "I knew to try doing it from a Terminal without even searching the error message"
Just to clarify -
The guest modules are software that enable the guest distro to take advantage of the host's hardware features. This allows full screen resolution, drag and drop, copy/paste, and the luxury of using hardware on the host machine like a dvd player or usb slots.
In either vmware or virtualbox,this can be done two ways:
a) use the additions folder and a terminal or
b) download open-vm-tools and open-vm-tools-desktop from the repositories.
So I've done about 50 virtual installs, maybe more, over the last 4 or 5 years. I have never, ever used a terminal to do this. I always use b) above.
When I tested a usb stick yesterday after reading your post I noticed the files didn't show up on the desktop, as they do in Windows, but were on the left top of the home file. And it was perfect.
Recently Jason used your method to get the modules with his MX, and Bill used mine. Same result. Worthwhile adding that some distros add the modules automatically, and some make you go get them. MX is in the latter category.
Hope I have answered your question clearly. Write back if I've misinterpreted your request.
It's the usb stick I don't understand. Did you install the vm on a usb stick, or perhaps download the modules and put them on a usb stick? Or did you just test the usb stick on your vm to see if it could see files installed there?
Mike wrote: "did you just test the usb stick on your vm to see if it could see files installed there?"
I just tested the ability to see the files on a USB stick.
I just went back to the MX vm I created with Virtualbox, shut it down and tried to add USB 2 or 3 capability with the settings. It added either but noted that the setting was invalid, and the vm wouldn't boot with either of those settings. Going back to USB 1.1, which was installed by default, and it booted up OK. So, Harry, do you have USB 2 or 3 capability in your MX vm?
Incidentally, MX Linux boots up very quickly in a Virtualbox vm; 10 sec I would estimate, although it takes another 15-20 sec before Conky loads. Amazing! I had previously reported freezing in Thunderbird on my bare metal installation, so I tried that on the vm. Got the same freezing, at least twice, but I think that this occurred while Thunderbird was downloading messages from my university server. It happened in the vm when I was setting up my Google calendar in Lightning (a Thunderbird extension in case you didn't know). But once Lightning was set up and the messages were downloaded, I haven't seen a Thunderbird freeze in either the bare metal installation or the vm.
The Lightning calendar works well in either MX installation, and it is full featured. The disadvantage, vs either Gnome calendar or a Google calendar app is that the latter display your calendar with one click. Lightning requires starting up Thunderbird and then clicking the calendar icon, although in a vm, one could leave the calendar showing when saving the vm state, and it will show when opened the next time. For Google, one has to start up a browser first and then click on a Google Calendar link you set up. Neither is a big deal, but with Gnome calendars, it's a one-stop-shop. I'm sure that Gnome calendars would work if one is running the Gnome desktop in MX instead of xfce.
Mike wrote: " tried to add USB 2 or 3 capability with the settings. It added either but noted that the setting was invalid, and the vm wouldn't boot with either of those settings. "
You work too hard Mike, that's your problem. :)
I almost always choose to do nothing until something doesn't work. After it shows a flaw, I try to fix or modify.So...
a) drag amd drop and full screen didn't work, so I downloaded guest modules
b) you asked about the usb connection, so I tested it with usb stick, and it worked already. If that has been handled by the software, I show respect and step away.
I never changed anything. And wont as long as it functions.
One other comment, usually I work in full screen with a vm. If it's just a window on the screen, suspect that changes things for hardware.
Sorry I can't be more help.
Quote from: buster on January 21, 2019, 01:03:55 PM
...
b) you asked about the usb connection, so I tested it with usb stick, and it worked already. If that has been handled by the software, I show respect and step away.
I never changed anything. And wont as long as it functions.
Then you probably wouldn't know whether USB 2 and 3 capability actually functions in the vm because even if you only have USB 1 capability, a USB 2 or 3 stick will still work. (It just won't work at the faster USB 2 or 3 specification.) It's also possible that the full speed capability works with the VMware Player additions, but it doesn't seem to in Virtualbox. Not that it's a big deal. One can always copy over data files by accessing them from the host desktop from the vm. But yes, I work harder than I need to when I'm as interested in learning something as I am in just making something work. :)
One of the other things I just learned is that USB 2 and 3 didn't work in a Windows 7 guest either. I was quite surprised about that. But one of the advantages of "working harder" is I'm less likely to "show respect and step away" when I think something isn't right. In this case, I finally found out that there is another Virtualbox program called the Virtualbox Extension Pack which does enable full USB 2 and 3 functioning. I downloaded the version matching my Virtualbox version from the Oracle VB website. Clicking on that file installs the extension pack into Virtualbox, and it isn't vm-specific. Once I did that, USB 2 and 3 could be enabled in the settings of either of my vms.
Mike wrote: " I work harder than I need to when I'm as interested in learning "
I would like to learn more, but my brain is full.