Fedora 24 out but has its limitations

[fox]

Fedora 24 is out, and I decided to give it a try. I downloaded the live version of the Workstation edition, and put it onto a usb stick. Still was harder than it should have been. I tried unetbootin and it didn't produce a bootable version. In the end I had to install it on Windows using Fedora's usb installer tool. I knew there was a reason I keep a version of Windows on my laptops. The 64 bit version wouldn't boot on my older Acer laptop. The default boot configuration is set for UEFI boot, and this laptop doesn't have that even as an option. After a bit of googling I found that it would boot at the cursor prompt if you type "linux" there. On my Dell with UEFI, it booted OK without that. Similarly, it booted in the default configuration on any of my macs.

The Fedora 24 workstation boots into a gnome desktop; gnome 3.20 is installed. (If you choose to install it, you can install pretty much any desktop you like.) It looks better than previous versions and has some nice wallpaper, but beyond that, it has serious deficiencies for the average user. The Software install program is very slow. More importantly, the repositories are very skimpy, and apparently, even the rpmfusion repository lacks a lot of the basic apps that most users would look for, at least for version 24 at present. For example, VLC and Chromium are both missing. A review on LinuxConfig points out the same deficiencies, and they are present even if you install Fedora on your HD. I also was not able to install the Broadcom driver necessary to activate my wifi in the Dell and the Macs. On the Acer, wifi worked out of the box, but probably because of it being non-UEFI, I couldn't install anything or even change the wallpaper in the live usb.

I also tried it in a VirtualBox virtual machine. It installed and ran easily, but it continually crashed and in one case, froze the computer (my "troublesome" iMac; see below).

Why was I interested in Fedora in the first place? Mainly because I continue to be frustrated by random once or twice a day freezes on my office iMac running Ubuntu 16.04 with a second monitor. As a result, I am now looking to try something else on that computer. Fedora can now be upgraded into new versions, and I wouldn't want to install anything that is either not LTS or cannot be upgraded. I also don't trust rolling releases, as I have broken stuff with them before. I am also considering OpenSuse Leap and perhaps even Mint, but the latter has neither the gnome nor the unity desktop I like. OpenSuse Leap is just now coming out with a new version, but it is only in alpha. While I may try that if I can't fix the freezes in Ubuntu, I am now thinking of installing Ubuntu 14.04 LTS and seeing if that works. (I never had these freezes in 15.10.) At any rate, now that I know its limitations as a consumer desktop, I won't be installing Fedora anytime soon.

[bobf]

Thanks for the heads-up, Mike! Had you given thought to CentOS? Also RPM-based, not that I think that matters to you, but being fully enterprise-hardened, it may prove more stable - and provide the Broadcom driver you need! - than the 'proving ground' that Fedora's always been, specifically to test new features for inclusion into CentOS!

And if you're having that much trouble with a particular piece of hardware, you may find it's not all about the distro - it just may have some subtle 'issues' that make it unstable at large, even if masked by OS X (though I doubt there's any "safe harbour" there, either...) As I'd mentioned at the last MUG, it's been a real revelation to find out that numbers into the billions of electrolytic capacitors with chemically unstable electrolyte poured into the market from 1999-2003, and Apple would've had to commit to, say, only buying stock from Nichicon, for instance, to manage to avoid being a part of the consequent hardware meltdown - literally, in many cases! <^8#

[fox]

Bob, I did consider CentOS briefly, but the packages are very old and I'm not keen to go away from a Debian-based distro unless it's modern and well supported. I don't think that the cause is my Mac hardware because I didn't have this problem in Ubuntu 15.10 on the same computer with the same monitor attached. I don't think that the Broadcom driver has anything to do with these freezes as it is the same driver I was using with Ubuntu 15.10. I'm pretty sure that the problem is either the Nvidia driver, the kernel, or both because those are the most relevant pieces of software related to the second monitor that changed going from 15.10 to 16.04. Today I am running without the second monitor and so far no freezes.

Other things on my list to try with the extra monitor engaged:
(1) Kernel from Ubuntu 15.10 and the most recent kernel (4.7 I think)
(2) Current Nvidia tested driver (361; I'm using 340), or the latest driver
(3) Alternative Ubuntu version, either Ubuntu 14.04 LTS or Ubuntu Mate 16.04

I never had these freezes before on this iMac or on any computer I have run in Linux. While they are frequent, they are annoying.

One other thing I read to check is /var/log/syslog. These are long files and to have any chance of isolating the problem that way I have to record the time when a freeze occurs. I will do so from here on.

One other cause I have read about for Linux freezes is too little RAM, swap, or spare drive space. I don't think that any of those apply to me. I have 100 gb free on the SSD partition where Ubuntu resides, 8 gb RAM and 4 gb swap, which rarely has any data in it.

Other suggestions?

[buster]

Solved a problem recently that stumped me by removing the ram sticks, making sure they were clean and dustless, and reinserting to solve this odd behavior.  Easy to try.

Bob also noted it may be hardware.

[fox]

Thanks, Harry; good point about RAM; something like that could cause freezes, although it would be quite the coincidence if the RAM went wonky right when I upgraded to 16.04. Hopefully I'll get this solved between the video driver and the kernel. I started today by disconnecting the second monitor for the morning. No freezes. Next I upgraded the Nvidia driver to 361 and then rebooted without the second monitor connected, followed by rebooting with the monitor connected. No freezes all afternoon. Could be coincidence, but maybe, just maybe, I solved the problem?

[William Park]

Fedora 24 is out, and I decided to give it a try. I downloaded the live version of the Workstation edition, and put it onto a usb stick. Still was harder than it should have been. I tried unetbootin and it didn't produce a bootable version. In the end I had to install it on Windows using Fedora's usb installer tool. I knew there was a reason I keep a version of Windows on my laptops. The 64 bit version wouldn't boot on my older Acer laptop. The default boot configuration is set for UEFI boot, and this laptop doesn't have that even as an option. After a bit of googling I found that it would boot at the cursor prompt if you type "linux" there. On my Dell with UEFI, it booted OK without that. Similarly, it booted in the default configuration on any of my macs.

You don't need to "make" a bootable USB.  Just dd the Fedora ISO to USB stick.

[fox]

A not-so-funny story with dd. I have a bad memory and I copied the full dd command from a website, intending to change the target to my usb drive. Unfortunately, when I copied must have included a carriage return because as soon as I pasted it, it started working and before I could stop it, the partition table to my internal drive was destroyed. I couldn't revive the drive at all, but fortunately I had made a clonezilla backup that included most of what was on that disk. But I sure learned a lesson!

[William Park]

Next time, try typing '#' char first, then paste your text.  If text includes LF, then the command will be just a comment.  If it doesn't include LF, then you can remove the leading '#'.

[fox]

Thanks for the suggestion, William. I didn't know the "#" worked in a terminal.

[bobf]

Bob, I did consider CentOS briefly, but the packages are very old and I'm not keen to go away from a Debian-based distro unless it's modern and well supported...

I think you pronounced <ahem!> "stable" improperly, Mike! <^8# The very nature of CentOS, essentially a rebranded RHEL, *is* stability, before ANY other consideration. You may enjoy playing Russian roulette with the latest versions of available packages (it's in our motto!!), but isn't that what beleaguered your U16.04 install specifically? Deployment to innumerable (at least by me!) enterprise installations pretty much DEMANDS avoiding ANY potential for 'breakage'. In fact, probably my most remarkable install was a version of CentOS, which, after an initial updates run, NEVER again, over a period of *months*, required another solitary update file - right up to the announcement of the next version (or subversion) release. I believe that's the ONLY instance I've seen of that in nearly 10 years using Linux. "Would t'were it were" Ubuntu could be the Debian-stream counterpart, but IMHO, ITS claim to fame seems to be "let's see just how many new 'features' we can deploy all at one time and REALLY destabilize - OOPS, I meant 'improve' - it!" <^8# And I doubt you could argue that ANY distro whatsoever qualifies as better supported than RHEL. YMMV... Oh, and bear in mind, CentOS' repositories are RHEL's...

...I have 100 gb free on the SSD partition where Ubuntu resides, 8 gb RAM and 4 gb swap, which rarely has any data in it.

Other suggestions?

Once upon a time, it was suggested that one should set up their swap partition at twice the value of RAM in the computer, but, apart from making regular use of the hibernate functionality (which has never seemed to me to be particularly stable), anything these days in excess of 1GB seems a complete waste of otherwise usable disk space. That said, I doubt being overly generous would destabilize the computer...

[fox]

Update. I think that the respositories have gotten better, as I was able to easily find and install VLC. (I can't remember what repository had it, but it was an easy google search and install.) Same with Chrome and msttcorefonts if you want them. My one major complaint is the font rendering in browsers is ugly compared to Ubuntu. (I notice this on openSUSE as well.) Thus far I haven't been able to fix this.

Incidentally, I am now running Fedora 24 in a virtual machine using Virtual Machine Manager. I just posted a bit about this alternative to VirtualBox in the newly created "Apps" section.

[buster]

Interesting review of Fedora on Distrowatch yesterday.

http://distrowatch.com/weekly.php?issue=20160704#fedora

[fox]

Yep, saw that. I think that the review was pretty reasonable, and it was interesting the way Christine Hall's review was panned somewhat by Fedora fans, and that Jesse Smith defended it. I agree that Fedora is more difficult for non-novices to install and configure than most Debian-based distros, and even than openSUSE. Having said that, I see its value as a desktop and I have enough understanding of Linux to configure it to my liking (at least with the help of Google), and with the ability to update it to a new version, it is worth exploring. I'm still running it in a virtual machine and the only trouble I'm still having with it at the moment is getting browsers to display smooth, nice-to-read text like Ubuntu does. The menu text is fine; it's only the text in Firefox and Chrome.

[fox]

More experiments with Fedora 24 in virtual machines. I have now tried it with VirtualBox on my iMac and Dell 7120 desktop, and virt-manager on the iMac and on my i5 Mac mini. Only one of the four has been a totally positive experience (virt-manager on mac mini); the others experienced freezes. On the iMac I installed it a second time in VirtualBox, but the result was the same. Most of the freezes were on system updates; some on Firefox. But when it works, it's nice. The only other negative is that finding and installing software not already in the Fedora or rpmfusion repos is a chore, even in comparison with OpenSUSE (another rpm distro). I will probably install it on bare metal (my Acer) by the end of the summer so that I can review it at one of our regular PLUG meetings.

[fox]

I had some time last night, so I went ahead and installed Fedora 24 on my Acer, which makes it the 5th distro on that laptop. I first shrank the last partition to create enough free space to hold Fedora; I allowed 16 gb. I booted from a live USB and did the installation from there. I was wary of automatic partitioning and the installation of its own grub, but neither turned out to be a problem. The partitioner found the free space and used it in automatic mode; I knew it was doing that without checking the partition scheme because the size of partition it said it would install to matched the free space. I expected an option to install or not install grub, but I must have missed it, and its grub was installed. At reboot, all of the OSes/distros were shown on Fedora's grub except for Remix OS, which no grub picks up automatically. Windows 10 was shown as well. But I wanted my nicely set up grub in Cub Linux to preside, so I booted into Cub and reinstalled grub-pc. This worked, except that the newly installed Fedora was not on the menu.

I suspected that this might happen because the default Fedora partition is LVM, and that's what I got. A quick google told me that if you install LVM2 on your Debian or Ubuntu-based distro, and then mount the Fedora LVM partition by clicking on it in Nautilus, you can get it added to grub by then updating your grub ("sudo update-grub") in a terminal. This worked, and now I have all partitions, including Remix and Fedora, showing in my Grub menu.

As I noted earlier, adding applications to Fedora that are not present in its repos (or those of rpmfusion) can be much more difficult than with other mainline or Debian-based distros. However, there is a GUI app that makes it easy if the app you want is on its menu. It is called "fedy" (instructions here). Once you have fedy, you can click-install all kinds of useful apps, including chrome, codecs, flash, dropbox, and even themes and font tweaks. I will continue to work with Fedora so I can present it at one of our next meetings.